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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans Chimps

57 replies

katmeouws · 14/10/2022 13:44

I was reading an article that scientists had discovered transgender chimps. Is that possible? I had heard of gay dogs, but not trans chimps.

OP posts:
ZandathePanda · 16/10/2022 00:47

I studied groups of primates. There was one youngish male chimp who was low in the pecking order, displaying behaviour I would think of as helping and socialising with the females. There was a very dominant prime-condition alpha male he fooled. Whilst the alpha male and other males weren’t looking he’d try it on with the females. It’s called ‘sneaky male syndrome’ and is a well known reproduction strategy in loads of very different species. The females would get vocal if he got too frisky though - they knew exactly what he was up to.

Within and between ape species there is so much variation in group structure. The idea that any individual ape may have an inner feeling they were ‘trans’ is absurd.

Wanderingowl · 16/10/2022 09:21

YouSirNeighMmmm · 14/10/2022 17:38

My understanding is that if you give chimps a load of toy trucks and soft toys and dolls the female chimps will tend to gravitate to the soft toys and dolls and the male chimps will tend to gravitate towards the trucks.

This makes complete sense to me, as we are not so different to chimps, and on average human females are more nurturing and male humans are more about things.

Clearly some male chimps will go for the doll, and vice versa, so if you use the (stupid, moronic, dangerous) logic of TRAs then some chimps are trans. FACT.

Here's the thing though. I'm super nurturing and motherly. I love children and they tend to love me. I planned my life around ensuring I could be a stay at home mother. All my favourite things in life involve my DS. The nurturing side of me extends to other people, which has been to my detriment as I stayed in a terrible marriage for a long, long time, desperate to save and protect a man who I thought needed my love. Who I only left when he escalated his bad behaviour once DS was born and I left for DS's sake, not mine. I know we say women aren't support humans, and we aren't, but my instinct to support others runs fucking deep.

But as a very young child, I displayed none of that. I never had any sort of comfort teddy, I had no particular interest in dolls of any kind. I used to line my teddies up on a wall and throw balls at them to knock them over, like some sort of mini-psychopath. I liked to climb, roll down hills, I liked to build things, smash things, I loved superheroes, my favourite was the Hulk (Lou Ferrigno version), and Star Wars. I liked to fight. I thought babies were stupid, disappointing and life limiting when the older of my brothers was born when I was 3. It wasn't until my youngest brother was born when I was 7 that I started to see their appeal. Both of my brothers were way more nurturing and gentle as toddlers/young children. They both loved their teddies and took care of them. They were much more sensitive than I was at that age. My DS, has always loved babies, looks after his teddies, had a baby doll that he used to push around in a toy buggy.

As a PP said about their male dog, my last two male dogs were incredibly caring of their soft toys. One in particular was the sweetest whenever he met a puppy, he would look after it, cuddle it, lick it clean. When DS was a baby, he was like a second mother, always checking on him, quick to make sure I responded to him if he cried. My brother's female dog rips all her teddies to shreds and is indifferent to my baby niece.

I don't doubt that there are some sex based patterns of play in humans and other prosocial mammals but I very much doubt they are as as drastic as some supposed 'studies' conclude. Especially as it's common in multiple primate species for lone males to join a new tribe by ingratiating themselves with the mothers and helping them by physically carrying and caring for their babies, until such time as they are accepted into the tribe. Female Emperor Tamarin monkeys typically mate with at least two males when they are fertile. So multiple males know they could be the father of her babies and she then has numerous males to look after her babies when she needs to move about without them on her. Their species is reliant on male paternal investment as the babies won't survive without multiple adult caregivers. If it really was a case that girl primates like looking after teddies while boy primates like sticks and toy cars, then most of their species would have gone extinct a long, long time ago as many are clearly very reliant on practical male caregiving to ensure a high rate of survival for their young.

Sazzasez · 16/10/2022 09:32

The claims about “trans animals” are often made, but while same sex sexual
activity is well documented in all kinds of species, unless we can define what “gender” means in animal societies, we can’t tell what it would look like if an animal’s gender was at odds with its sex.

nilsmousehammer · 16/10/2022 09:38

Same sex attraction is objectively observable and those observations can be exactly replicated by as many different people as wish to. Sex is a fixed, objectively observable state.

Gender is entirely subjective and can only be based on stereotypical judgements that vary anyway through culture, time, place, age, you name it. Which is why it all falls apart the minute you start saying, "so this bloke who's gone into childcare and is leading a baby room - are you planning to tell him you've decided he's a woman? And how does that fit with his deeply held feelings that he's a bloke and is happy being a bloke and doesn't care about your fixation with stereotypes? And your deeply held feelings that there's a gendered soul that exists independently of physical state that someone somewhere made a mistake when inserting into your body?"

TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 10:33

This kind of stuff has been around for years, although the "so they must be trans" bit is a recent add-on: www.theguardian.com/science/2010/dec/20/chimps-play-male-female-genetic

IcakethereforeIam · 16/10/2022 14:16

I think transing animals is like transing young children, it tells you far more about the person making the observations.

TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 14:59

Absolutely, cake!

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