I have to ask elderly patients for their gender identity

[Crabbyboot]

Please can I have some advice on this, I have been told by my boss that i have to ask our elderly patients for their gender identity when they come to see us. Without giving too much away I don't work in the UK so I am not NHS. My boss also does not agree with this but she says we need to do it as the regulators require it as part of our standards. Bearing in mind that we are a medical department I feel that this is highly unscientific. Also given the demographic of our patients it is inappropriate. I don't know if I should bother fighting this, or if it is just something I let go and accept. If I fight it I would like some help to articulate myself properly and in a way that is legal so I can't loose my job. I partly feel like just complying but insisting that everyone at work refers to me as a he/him/his just to prove how silly it is.

My Dad was asked this a few times in his last months. He had a great sense of humour and was quite sharp still so was slightly amused by it but I can imagine it being wholly inappropriate.

I'm really enjoying the thought of my wonderful late nan reacting to this question. She would be 102 if she hadn't died a couple years back. She was a legend who didn't mince her words to the end. She would probably have answered " piss off with that nonsense" or similar.

Age is no excuse for being intolerant

For most people it's intolerance of such inane questions in inappropriate settings.

👏

It's not intolerance. My grandad, or my Nanny for that matter genuinely wouldn't know what you were asking. They'd probably assume 'gender' was a polite way of saying 'sex' in which case they'd be confused because you can tell from looking at them/ their names/titles (Mr and Mrs) what sex they are.

Think yourself lucky Crabbyfoot - when I was working in the NHS I was told that we had to ask patients every time they attended an appointment - "Have you changed sex since I last saw you?"

I refused point blank to do it, on the grounds that it would be impossible to do my job if I could not establish and maintain a therapeutic relationship - and how could I do that if my patients thought I had gone stark, staring bonkers?

In your situation, if you felt you absolutely had to ask about "gender identity" and didn't want to upset or confuse your patients maybe you could get away with something like:

"Oh! It says on this form I have to ask your "gender identity"? Would that be "female", Mrs Trellis?" (said with a quizzical look, pausing briefly for a laugh, a look of fleeting bewilderment or the chance for Mrs Trellis to volunteer whatever response she felt appropriate - then move swiftly on!)

A potential issue, though rather remote as vanishingly few will claim to have a "gender identity", is that directly questioning patients about their "gender identities" might be experienced as intrusive, even distressingly "outing".

This would be a good reason for replacing a direct question with something more open and potentially much more useful, such as, "Is there anything else that you think I need to know?"

If Mrs Trellis does not volunteer that she was born a man, for example, then record "Gender Identity" as "Female".

Alternatively, you could try to find out from your colleagues what sort of responses their patients gave, surreptitiously sounding out if there would be support for "feedback" to your bosses about the appropriateness and relevance of asking your elderly patients about their "gender identity".

OMG - this has reminded me of a social worker who covered the same wards as me in Elderly Care, who asked all her patients/clients when they last had sex with their "spouse". She persisted in doing this, claiming that it was essential she knew, despite most patients being very angry with her at her impudence, or upset to the point of tears and too distressed to continue the interview, or in one case being outraged at the suggestion that she had sex with animals!

As you are not in the UK then legal advice may or may not be relevant.

If you do have to ask then you can do one of two things. Ask the sex at the start and then towards the end of getting information say something like, "Oh can I check I asked all the questions, you are male/female".

Or just note the sex and for 'gender ID' write - patient does not have a gender ID.

If you do want to fight then a letter to whoever is imposing this saying that you are a scientific department and you stick to the science. That gender is a social construct, damaging to society and to women in particular and is irrelevant to the treatment.

Have they only asked GI and not sex as well?

That’s what I was going to say! I can only imagine my parents and my grandmas opinions (they would be pure gold)

OP said they have to ask about gender not sex

If Mrs Trellis does not volunteer that she was born a man, for example, then record "Gender Identity" as "Female"

I would be really offended if someone recorded that I had a gender identity. I don't buy into that classification system and to me it would be like assuming I am religous.

Maybe we should just state birth sign when asked. Something that is also generally pretty obvious and just as useful.

I never fill out the religious ones either. I did see a form recently there they wrote ATHEIST in very large letters.

Do they ask for both sex and gender?

If so, you could ask, 'do you have a gender identity that differs from your sex', would that work?
and if they say WTF?! you can assume they don't.

If they only ask for gender... that's pretty shit!

Our trust has "gender: male/female" on our electronic records which makes my eyelid twitch every time.

I find the imposition of having to ask questions like this really disturbing.
For those who have their wits about them – and that includes a lot of people’s nans and grandads – it’s downright offensive in that it assumes that the person asked subscribes to the ideology in question.

One thing I’ve noticed is that when GC people are asked about their objections to GI ideology, they can explain coherently what they object to. When GI adherents, however, are asked to explain what gender identity actually is, they fall back on ‘well, it’s complicated’. And this, despite the fact that they can proclaim quite confidently that toddlers (and now even babies in the womb) know what their gender identity is.

In a healthcare setting, unless a question can be framed in such a way that it can be understood by a five-year-old patient or one who is 88 years old with dementia then it shouldn’t be asked. It will never receive a meaningful answer. The danger though is that such answers will be used to formulate future policy and provision.

100%

its all madness isnt it,
Ive just encountered my local doctors surgery travel vaccinations form online

One section headed.
Gender
Male, female or other ! FFS its sex not fing gender

It is an employment issue and I therefore prefaced that part of my reply with:

'In your situation, if you felt you absolutely had to ask about "gender identity" and didn't want to upset or confuse your patients maybe you could get away with something like:'

But that does not make it ok or respectful. Most people do not have a 'gender identity'. They just know what they biologically are. We can't ascribe things to people just to keep a small percentage of dysphoric people more content. Especially not when they then use that as evidence for the fallacious foundations of their rhetoric. It is no les disrespectful than assuming I am a christian, and recording that, just because I don't tell you otherwise.

Intolerant of what? Made up, illogical questions being asked to vulnerable, sometimes cognitively challenged elderly people? Your moral priorities are shameful.

I overheard a keen young medical student ask to talk to a patient in another cubicle about their medical history (only curtains so the rest of us also had to listen!) But they started off really badly by checking name and date of birth and then asking gender identity. The patient was indignant and offended and it was all quite frosty. The student was clearly eager and wanting to do well and is probably immersed in a group who consider virtue signalling re pronouns etc a sign of what a good person you are.

The idea that asking confusing/potentially offensive questions as part of your intro is somehow better, shows you as more considerate or progressive, just falls apart when faced with real people out there.

I did some online training this week and we were asked to introduce ourselves with name, pronouns, and experience of the subject matter. I went first and just said I'm Tallisker, and I have x experience.

Out of the 10 people on the course, only two gave their pronouns, both youngish women presenting as young women (ie very easy to tell their sex - along with everybody else's on the call)

I have to go with a whole load of demographic questions. I tend to go with "Our funders want to know stuff so that they can see we're not excluding people. I have to ask - you do not have to answer. I can put prefer not to say on any of them". I think my tone conveys my feelings on the matter!

Sorry I probably posted on the wrong thread. You know what I mean though

I think Mishy is right. Being young is no excuse for showing the kind of intolerance which gender ideology shows. Gender ideology is regressive and it's proponents are demeaning towards those who do not have a gender identity but understand the duality of biological sex. Their youth is no excuse for the harm they are arrogantly causing to the masses.