Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender inmates in women’s prisons to face new government restrictions

50 replies

SpottyBumPony · 12/10/2022 09:00

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-prisoners-women-jails-government-b2200573.html

Lizzie Dearden Home Affairs Editor 13 hours ago

Transgender prisoners “with male genitalia” should no longer be held in women’s prisons, the justice secretary has announced.

In a parliamentary statement, Brandon Lewis said he would bring forward a new policy on the issue later this year.

“Under the reforms, transgender prisoners with male genitalia should no longer be held in the general women’s estate,” he added.

“This will not be a blanket rule; exemptions to these new rules will be considered on a case-by-case basis.

“This will also apply to transgender women who have been convicted of a sex offence.”

Official figures show that the vast majority of trans inmates in England and Wales are held in male prisons, with most of the 40 in women’s jails identifying as male.

A parliamentary committee previously found there was a risk of violence, sexual assault, self-harming and suicide “where trans prisoners are not located appropriate to their acquired/affirmed gender”.

Several trans women have killed themselves in male prisons in the past decade.

Last week, Mr Lewis told the Conservative Party conference that it was “not right that transgender prisoners, when convicted of serious sexual offences or those who have not had reassignment surgery, are housed in the general women’s prison estate”, vowing: “This will end.”

The new justice secretary said there had been sex attacks and inappropriate relationships involving transgender inmates in recent years.

He suggested that the use of “specialist cells” could be increased to “further protect women in prison”.

The statement came days after official figures showed that police-recorded hate crimes targeting transgender people had rocketed by 56 per cent in a year.

Galop, an LGBT+ anti-abuse charity, said transphobic narratives in the media and by senior politicians have been allowed to grow without challenge and were translating into “violence against our community”.

Suella Braverman, the new home secretary, has focused on trans issues in recent weeks, wading into a Twitter row over the gender identity of a child sex abuser and hitting out at “biologically male police officers strip-searching female suspects”.

The former attorney general has been strident in her views at a series of events and interviews, replying when asked what a woman is that “a woman has two X chromosomes, a woman gives birth, a woman does not have a penis”.

The most recent prison service figures show that as of April 2021, there were 197 transgender prisoners in England and Wales.

Three-quarters of trans inmates identified as female, and 80 per cent reported their legal gender as male.

The vast majority of trans women were still being held in male prisons, an official report for 2020-21 said, with only 40 transgender prisoners in women’s jails. Of that group, fewer than five people reported their legal gender as male.

The figures include people who were “presenting in a gender different to their sex assigned at birth”, and exclude people who have already transitioned and have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

High Court judges found that the current policy was lawful in 2021, after a female prisoner who said she had been sexually assaulted by a trans inmate convicted for serious sexual offences launched a challenge.

The Ministry of Justice argued that its policy pursued the legitimate aim of “facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender”, and protected trans women’s mental and physical health.

From 2011, guidance for prisons in England and Wales stated that prisoners should normally be located in the prison estate of their gender as recognised by UK law, and that a Gender Recognition Certificate would normally be necessary before a person could be moved.

After a 2016 policy review, new guidelines stated that “all transgender prisoners (irrespective of prison location) must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify”.

Inmates were allowed to express their view on where they should be held, but decisions to locate them in a jail that did not accord with their legal gender was left to a Transgender Case Board.

The current guidance states that decisions are made on a case-by-case basis and informed by evidence and intelligence to “balance risk and promote the safety of all”.

“The management of individuals who are transgender must seek to protect both the welfare and rights of the individual and the welfare and rights of others around them, including staff,” it adds.

“Where a transgender woman with a GRC is placed in the women’s estate, all known or likely risks she may pose to other women in the estate should be managed, with use of separate accommodation where appropriate.”

More aboutBrandon LewisPrisonsJustice SecretaryTransgender

OP posts:
PaterPower · 12/10/2022 09:15

It’s a hopeful announcement, but the proof will be in whether anything actually changes.

It would have been reassuring to get a commitment to correctly record crimes by the sex of the suspect / perpetrator, in the justice system, rather than using whatever gender identity they’ve decided to try on for the day.

Fenlandia · 12/10/2022 09:16

"This will not be a blanket rule; exemptions to these new rules will be considered on a case-by-case basis"

So we're no better off really. Just because a transwoman isn't a sex offender doesn't mean female prisoners should be forced to share cells or showers with them.

RaininginDarling · 12/10/2022 09:21

But men who have body modification surgery are still stronger and bigger than women, they shouldn't be in the female estate at all.

Hearthnhome · 12/10/2022 09:23

The statement came days after official figures showed that police-recorded hate crimes targeting transgender people had rocketed by 56 per cent in a year.

Well when believing in biology becomes a crime and ‘literal violence’, it’s not surprising rates go up.

Where do the rates of male violence against females stand?

JacquelinePot · 12/10/2022 09:37

Not good enough! No men in women's prisons. Full stop. There. It's easy.

Why are so-called Conservatives finding something so bloody simple so hard?

CountZacular · 12/10/2022 09:37

Official figures show that the vast majority of trans inmates in England and Wales are held in male prisons, with most of the 40 in women’s jails identifying as male.

I have read this repeatedly and I still can't understand what it means. It seems to imply either the trans inmates in women's prisons are actually natal women identifying as male, or that the 40 trans women in women's prisons don't actually identify as women after all (so why are they there?). And then also seems to contradict the following sentence:

The vast majority of trans women were still being held in male prisons, an official report for 2020-21 said, with only 40 transgender prisoners in women’s jails. Of that group, fewer than five people reported their legal gender as male.

Ramblingnamechanger · 12/10/2022 09:47

Looks like another “fudge” about to happen. No man with or without surgery should have the right to appropriate womens facilities of any kind. It should be a blanket ban, and they want to provide extra facilities in male prisons ,fine.

DameHelena · 12/10/2022 09:51

PaterPower · 12/10/2022 09:15

It’s a hopeful announcement, but the proof will be in whether anything actually changes.

It would have been reassuring to get a commitment to correctly record crimes by the sex of the suspect / perpetrator, in the justice system, rather than using whatever gender identity they’ve decided to try on for the day.

Yes. I am furious at the idea that women's crime statistics might be distorted by men committing them just because they identify as women. Especially rape, the attribution of which to women just makes a mockery of the law.

I will say I would like the issue of trans-identifying men killing themselves in male prisons addressed. But not by housing them in women's prisons.

ZeldaFighter · 12/10/2022 10:56

"The most recent prison service figures show that as of April 2021, there were 197 transgender prisoners in England and Wales.

Three-quarters of trans inmates identified as female, and 80 per cent reported their legal gender as male."

This sounds like a slightly risqué maths question - 1. How many biological males are actually locked up with women?

Johnnysgirl · 12/10/2022 11:00

“This will not be a blanket rule; exemptions to these new rules will be considered on a case-by-case basis
Why? 🙄
I'd love to hear what they consider reasonable exemptions...

Chattycathydoll · 12/10/2022 11:01

CountZacular · 12/10/2022 09:37

Official figures show that the vast majority of trans inmates in England and Wales are held in male prisons, with most of the 40 in women’s jails identifying as male.

I have read this repeatedly and I still can't understand what it means. It seems to imply either the trans inmates in women's prisons are actually natal women identifying as male, or that the 40 trans women in women's prisons don't actually identify as women after all (so why are they there?). And then also seems to contradict the following sentence:

The vast majority of trans women were still being held in male prisons, an official report for 2020-21 said, with only 40 transgender prisoners in women’s jails. Of that group, fewer than five people reported their legal gender as male.

Yes, you read it correctly. The trans inmates in womens prisons are trans men, aka biologically female and placed in a female prison.

‘the vast majority of trans women are being held in male prisons’
’40 trans prisoners are in womens jails’

that’s not contradictory- the trans women are with the men, the trans men are with the women. ‘Fewer than 5 (out of the 40) reported their legal gender as male’ so less than 5 of the natal women have a GRC to call themselves men.

CatSpeakForDummies · 12/10/2022 11:04

ZeldaFighter · 12/10/2022 10:56

"The most recent prison service figures show that as of April 2021, there were 197 transgender prisoners in England and Wales.

Three-quarters of trans inmates identified as female, and 80 per cent reported their legal gender as male."

This sounds like a slightly risqué maths question - 1. How many biological males are actually locked up with women?

It's impossible to say - isn't there the issue that those with a GRC are not counted as trans?

If we assume that the 80% who are legally male, 5% are women/trans men with a GRC - so the 75% is men who identify as female. There will be a few with a GRC who are male but legally are counted as female. It looks to be around 150.

Whatever the specific details, it is clear that there are ENOUGH men with gender identities to warrant a proper transgender prison, not a wing in the female estate, but their own prison or at least a half of a male prison with other vulnerable males (gay, old, certain religions etc.).

If they argue that such a prison would see a drop in numbers claiming to be trans, then it is an admission that men are using this to get to women.

Believerinbiology · 12/10/2022 11:05

Not exactly chatty because in other reports they've said they don't actually know how many trans women are in women's prisons because sometimes they are listed as women eg if have a grc. See keepprisonssinglesex data.

Chattycathydoll · 12/10/2022 11:07

Believerinbiology · 12/10/2022 11:05

Not exactly chatty because in other reports they've said they don't actually know how many trans women are in women's prisons because sometimes they are listed as women eg if have a grc. See keepprisonssinglesex data.

I was referring purely to that report- which seemed to mention GRC wrt to the 5 natal women with one, but no other details! It is rather limited.

WomenShouldWinWomensSports · 12/10/2022 11:08

It sounds like materially women are no better off. Ok, the default position has been clarified that penis-havers are to be put in penis-having places, but the case-by-case basis… isn’t that just the same as the transgender case board who obviously have a track record of making spectacular cock ups to the detriment of natal women.

So the same people who shout the loudest and get their own way will be enabled to shout loudly and get their own way still. The start of the article was so promising.

ItsStardustBackAgain · 12/10/2022 11:14

Fenlandia · 12/10/2022 09:16

"This will not be a blanket rule; exemptions to these new rules will be considered on a case-by-case basis"

So we're no better off really. Just because a transwoman isn't a sex offender doesn't mean female prisoners should be forced to share cells or showers with them.

This.

I’m disappointed. At the moment we have some politicians in powerful positions who understand the danger to women. But who’s on these ‘transgender boards’ in prison and who gets to decide whether or not a man is a danger to women? Who will be on the boards in future?

Plus these stats don’t include trans women wirh gender recognition certificates.

Unless there’s a blanket ban, it’s meaningless.

People who are physically capable of rape should never be locked up with female prisoners. That isn’t complicated.

Signalbox · 12/10/2022 11:51

Another fudge of a policy then. If they are going to allow men / males access to women’s prisons at all (and they shouldn’t) there should be a blanket ban on anyone who has a conviction for sexual or violent offences. They don’t seem capable of carrying out actual risk assessments.

HorseInTheHouse · 12/10/2022 11:57

“Under the reforms, transgender prisoners with male genitalia should no longer be held in the general women’s estate,” he added.

“This will not be a blanket rule; exemptions to these new rules will be considered on a case-by-case basis.

“This will also apply to transgender women who have been convicted of a sex offence.”

Well, it bloody well should be a blanket rule and it should have nothing to do with whether the individual has ever been convicted of a sex offence or what kinds of surgery they may have had.

FrancescaContini · 12/10/2022 11:59

“This will not be a blanket rule.”

Why ever not?

CloudPop · 12/10/2022 12:05

I wonder how many trans men are housed in male prisons?

HorseInTheHouse · 12/10/2022 12:19

CloudPop · 12/10/2022 12:05

I wonder how many trans men are housed in male prisons?

I'd like to believe none. It would be inhumane. Would they even ask to be? Somehow I doubt it. I think despite everything, most transmen must still have enough sense of self-preservation that when it comes down to the wire, they might use the cubicles in a men's toilet but they wouldn't choose to be locked up with men.

Clymene · 12/10/2022 12:27

Keep Prisons Single Sex has done a good Twitter thread on this

twitter.com/noxyinxxprisons/status/1579895450215538688?s=61&t=qyBNrHItk_ASpyz4kTBI3g

ChlorineChris · 12/10/2022 12:28

"Several trans women have killed themselves in male prisons in the past decade."

Is this true?

Is it related to their gender identity?

How does that rate compare to suicide in male inmates as a group?

Why is this sentence in the middle of the article with no discussion or qualification?

It also flies pretty close to going against the Samaritans reporting rules around suicide imo.

FigRollsAlly · 12/10/2022 12:37

If we were in any doubt about the sympathies and world view of the writer of this piece, the use of the word “strident” to describe Suella Braverman’s approach would be a giveaway.

MangyInseam · 12/10/2022 12:41

The way this is written is quite ambiguous with the language of "case to case basis", but I am not sure that it's meant to be a fudge. It seems like it's pretty clearly signposting that male prisoners will not be in with the general female population and that is the intent, so I wonder if the reporting is being unclear. What kinds of scenarios are they envisioning with the case to case business, is what I'd like to know? Moving some into a trans wing? Something else?

Anyway, the proof will be in the pudding.

But I do think this is going to be the way this stuff begins to be rolled back. There will be controversies and things that have gone of the rails will be addressed in a piecemeal basis, and it will be through the channels of government, not just ministers making announcements. And to really root it all out is going to take as much time as was involved in establishing it in the first place.

So I think the way forward is to respond positively to positive changes while continuing to point out things that have been overlooked.

Swipe left for the next trending thread