What is your least GC belief and why?

[PermanentTemporary]

Just thought I'd start this thread for no particular reason. The range of views interests me.

I have a few that may or may not be typical. I suppose they are summed up by believing that transition is always going to exist, that it's part of the human condition, and also that what sex we are is much less important than it used to be in daily life (I think this is a good thing).

'We can always tell' - this as a blanket statement is obviously not true, and worse, it's unprovable - if I can't tell, then I'm not going to know. Voice training can be remarkably successful for some male people (I'm a speech therapist). There are also quite a lot of stories by posters on here referring to people they know where they didn't realise they were trans for some years.

Public toilets are self policed and will be used based on someone's self perception. Making them a battleground doesn't help anyone, least of all women. Conversely, I do think awareness that abusing unaware women in public toilets by use of cameras is a specific perversion/porn category needs to be much greater.

Use of neutral pronouns (they/them) and using Mx as an honorific are perfectly reasonable things to do and fit in happily with my feminism. I think this will end up spreading, in fact they already are.

If I think of some more I'll add them.

Use of neutral pronouns (they/them) and using Mx as an honorific are perfectly reasonable things to do and fit in happily with my feminism. I think this will end up spreading, in fact they already are.

Agreed.

I’m still unravelling my thoughts on a lot of GC discussions but am watching with interest.

I'd describe myself as GC but I acknowledge that the toilets/changing rooms issue is a difficult one.

Would most women be comfortable with trans men in the women's loos? It seems to me a lot of them pass pretty well compared to trans women. Maybe something to do with facial hair being readily produced with hormones, but a lot harder to prevent or conceal. Similarly male hormones lower the voice, whereas trans women often still have very deep voices.

I agree with you OP that transition will always be a thing. It frustrates me when women's interests are disregarded by policymakers - in sport in particular - but at the same time I'm glad I'm not the one having to come up with a policy.

If you let the sex class that is responsible for 99% of sex crimes into spaces where women are vulnerable there will be problems (even ignoring the discomfort of women because 'obviously' that doesn't count). The fact that a tiny percentage may 'pass' in no way would validate the policy. Just no.

Why does this seem like another 'bekind' to the poor men thread?

The toilets and changing rooms situation is neither difficult nor complicated.
They are segregated by sex.

Who the fuck do you think are putting cameras in female spaces? Men. Their 'gender identity' is irrelevant. Especially when we are not allowed to question the motives of the men who are demanding access to any space where women are at their most vulnerable. So a blanket ban is both legal and necessary.

Stop with the bullshit that masculine women make other women feel uncomfortable. If transmen don't want to use female facilities that's on them, and if transwomen don't want to use male facilities the solution isn't to allow man into female spaces. They can go campaign for 3rd mixed sex spaces.

There may be a tiny % who need to transition to ease their dysphoria, a mental health issue not some innate gender soul, but that is no reason why the rest of society must go along with the nonsense they have changed sex, and is why the exemptions were put in the equality act in the first place to keep sports and facilities single SEX.

and also that what sex we are is much less important than it used to be in daily life

Really? So we should just pretend that females aren't still oppressed, abused and controlled due to their unique female biology, and that males don't commit most violent and sexual crimes?

Why the fuck should women have to accommodate men in their spaces, especially when the only reason is because the men get hurt feelings when they are told no?

Go tell the men to be kind and accommodate all the males with 'genders' in their own sexed spaces.
Female spaces aren't their to provide validation or titillation for males with gender identities.

Because it is. Same old same old.

On public loos and changing rooms, I can't and won't accept that it's OK to have men in them. There are many women who, for religious/cultural reasons, or because of past experience and trauma, will simply not use them if they perceive a possibility of a man being in there. No woman or girl should feel unable to use a loo or changing room for these reasons.

Things like 'passing' and using neutral pronouns I don't have an issue with per se. But overall I just think a lot of this 'be kind' stuff is basically men wanting something, women saying no and men chucking their toys out of the pram. Which I'm not down with.

How on earth is our born sex less important nowadays?
Are women no longer the ones who give birth to all the humans on the planet after all then? Are women actually doing all the raping now too? The gender ideologists right about all that now?

Give over 😂

Pronouns are not just an identity they are a mental shorthand. Using contradictory mental shorthand is messy. It doesn't matter so much in formal situations like at work but is confusing to use female pronouns to/about a person who we unconsciously perceive as physically male and/or rationally know is physically male. Trying to use the wrong pronouns can defuse and slow down the unconscious sex-based risk assessments that we usually make in social situations. There are people who want to be risk assessed as a different sex from their own, for good reasons or for bad.

Honorifics are a bit less of a problem. They often require more thought and made-up ones like "Mx" are gender neutral so they don't lead to dissonanace.

Ironically enough, in the Stonewall debacle I feel much more sympathy for Kirrin Metcalf (KM) when I think of KM by KM's physical sex than by KM's gender identity. Thinking of the vulnerability of a young woman with autism who resolves her conflict by transition gives me a very different empathic response than just "autistic man / he". (And different again from a young man with autism who decides to transition. Funnily enough I must think like the 2010 Equality Act - sex matters, and gender reassignement matters. Gender identity doesn't.)

I know a couple of masc/stud lesbians who go by he/him despite not being in any way trans, so pronouns not quite aligning with what you might expect based on appearance isn't a new concept for me.

I think the 'pronouns I use' are the ones that come out of my mouth. It is not up to other people to request I use different pronouns. I think they/them will only become more widespread if people just use it for everyone. And if we do that I think we will lose vital female representation for our young daughters growing up. Already the default is he/him, that is not improved by using they/them.

My biggest problem is the idea that you can force me to use non-sex-based pronouns for you when your sex is as clear as day.

They/them, sure I use when I don't know someone's sex, or sometimes as a kind of verbal distancing for a stranger/3rd party not present/almost formal thing to emphasise their sex isn't a thing here. But for someone I see day to day, it's a massive ask to expect me to change basic English grammar just for you.

And toilets - the issue is that if you soften societal taboos (going in the wrong toilets) then there's no walking that back - and no point pretending that they don't exist. Like in some towns it's totally normal for one more car to go through the red-light, or for everyone to be 10 mins late for a reservation. Whereas in other places that would shock the locals.

Use of neutral pronouns (they/them) and using Mx as an honorific are perfectly reasonable things to do and fit in happily with my feminism. I think this will end up spreading, in fact they already are.

I'm inclined to think this is congruent with being gender critical. In most situations in life sex shouldn't be relevant, so there's no need to announce it. I'm happy to have a neutral title.

People policing pronouns and claiming offence if someone naturally uses the correct sex pronoun is tedious though. Everyone has a sex and it can't be changed, nothing wrong with that.

that what sex we are is much less important than it used to be in daily life

Where is this nirvana in which you live? The world I live in still shows women earning less, being sacked for being pregnant, 2-3 being murdered every week in domestic settings, being the default carers for both old and young, losing earning power for being pregnant even if we go straight back to work...

I get that if you are a young, graduate MC professional without children it may feel equal but outside of that narrow boundary - it ain't.

I've been thinking about this since it was mentioned on another thread yesterday and I honestly can't think of anything that I I can even slightly agree with the genderists on when it comes to female single sex provision. I agree that trans people should not be discriminated against or abused in anyway and should be accepted as trans people in society. I will never agree that a man can be a woman though.

Traditionally, singular they/them is only used when the number of people doesn't matter or is very obvious from the context. Extending it to gender identity is a pain in the arse. "Jane had Dominoes pizza with the family last night. They liked it, she didn't" works, but "they liked it, they didn't" doesn't work at all.

The point of the thread wasn't really to end up restating my GC beliefs... but with pronouns, what I'm saying is that using they/them pronouns as a choice ourselves is not the same thing as requiring other people to use opposite sex pronouns or neopronouns, which I disagree with. They/them use gets lumped in as 'pronouns' as a single issue when to me it's quite different.

And of course what sex we are is less important than it used to be. Now at least most of us assume it is wrong for pregnant women to be sacked, there are at least laws against it, even if they get broken. Doesn't mean it's not still unchangeable; that sex is used as a weapon against women far too often; and of course it remains important in some areas - that's why I'm GC at all, it's why I'm a feminist.

Yup, I'm a middle class professional. Which is why I know so many trans people, it seems to be a very middle class phenomenon in the UK.

Haven't tackled the toilets yet... I'm not ignoring it...

I hear you op. I won't hijack your thread but I'm somewhere between GC and TWAW. I don't tend to post much on here because there doesn't seem to be much room for dissenting opinions on this board which I've always thought is quite odd considering this is a feminist space!

@DialSquare but what does acceptance mean? You and I probably agree that nobody should be abused for their gender presentation. But a man who sees 'woman' as a sexual fetish and wants to present in a sexualised way, forcing others to participate is a huge negative to all women. We probably both agree there. It is part of the same phenomenon that women's fashion has become so incredibly sexualised so that this can be hidden in plain sight.

I’m not convinced by the hundreds of men who can pass as women and apparently always have. This always seems to be hearsay, and tbh I think it is hard to validate the claimed experience of an anonymous poster on a chat forum. I have known several MTF and I don’t think I would have taken them for women at first glance : quite apart from size they configuration is just different, and false breast, tucking etc doesn’t alter this.

FTM may have beards but they don’t look very masculine on the whole. They often seem to be below average female height. I can’t say I would be alarmed at meeting one in a female space ( although I might be quite upset for them).

I saw a very interesting podcast with the ex head of disguise at the CIA ( yes, really) , complete with examples of their skill. She said that they had successfully disguised women as men for street operations ( so not prolonged contact) but NEVER a man as a woman.

with pronouns, what I'm saying is that using they/them pronouns as a choice ourselves is not the same thing as requiring other people to use opposite sex pronouns or neopronouns, which I disagree with.

One of my children uses they/them all the time. Their choice, but it's almost impossible to figure out who they are talking about. I would absolutely prefer a singular gender neutral neo-pronoun.

I would be very happy using Mx instead of Ms - I'm a woman - and the only reason I'm not using it is because it would currently result in questions about my assumed "gender", which negates the whole point!

I've known many trans people over the years, and one in particular I would have had no idea that she was born male - I met her many years post-surgery and she was indistinguishable from the rest of us in the women's group. Some of the transwomen I met didn't pass as well (mostly because they were trying too hard to be feminine) but they weren't anything like as threatening as you hear about today, they just wanted to get on with their lives, and their trans-ness only became relevant if you were wanting to get into an intimate relationship with them.

I am fairly sure there are many, many trans people (in both directions) today who just want to live their lives, and who want all the current furore to shut up, because it's making their lives difficult; they were generally accepted before, whereas now they are unwillingly part of a more vicious agenda, and nervous because of it.

I really have no issue with post-surgery anyone in any of the spaces I frequent, why would I? But what I cannot stomach is this somehow associated need for us born-woment to become second-rate citizens in the process, plus of course the total headfuck dissonance of "I'm a woman but I've got a dick...and you should welcome me on that basis". Well no, I won't. I go to women's spaces because I want to be with women, and not to have to manouevre myself around male egos, however frocked up they are.

I don't tend to post much on here because there doesn't seem to be much room for dissenting opinions on this board which I've always thought is quite odd considering this is a feminist space!

Plenty of room - you will be asked to defend them though!

I had my arse handed to me plenty of times here - sometimes it's made me change my mind, sometimes it's entrenched my position. People might be forthright, and occasionally downright rude, but they're not abusive at least, unlike other forums I've occasionally requented.

Extending it to gender identity is a pain in the arse. "Jane had Dominoes pizza with the family last night. They liked it, she didn't" works, but "they liked it, they didn't" doesn't work at all.

You're right, it doesn't, but "Jane had Dominoes pizza with the family last night. They liked it, their family didn't" wouldn't confuse me.

Sorry but that's a bit daft - you'd quite naturally word it differently, probably just using Jane again. The same sort of ambiguity exists with 'you', people seem to cope.

In the spirit of your question, I am intrigued by seeing the relationships of the gender fluid youth up close and it challenges internalised sexism I didn't know I was still carrying. Like, how when non binary girl meets gender fluid boy she doesn't start dressing to impress or attract or changing herself, how he is free to be into the things he's into and not cultural norms of what he should be. Like they are using gender identity ideas to bypass gender stereotypes more successfully than I ever have. And they are not trying to be the opposite gender or in between, they are rejecting the stereotypes. Not nearly as much navel gazing or mental health distress going on as I feared either, they are just getting on with life as young people and barely think about gender identity. I have not so much insight into the trans young people as the non binary.