What is your least GC belief and why?

[PermanentTemporary]

Just thought I'd start this thread for no particular reason. The range of views interests me.

I have a few that may or may not be typical. I suppose they are summed up by believing that transition is always going to exist, that it's part of the human condition, and also that what sex we are is much less important than it used to be in daily life (I think this is a good thing).

'We can always tell' - this as a blanket statement is obviously not true, and worse, it's unprovable - if I can't tell, then I'm not going to know. Voice training can be remarkably successful for some male people (I'm a speech therapist). There are also quite a lot of stories by posters on here referring to people they know where they didn't realise they were trans for some years.

Public toilets are self policed and will be used based on someone's self perception. Making them a battleground doesn't help anyone, least of all women. Conversely, I do think awareness that abusing unaware women in public toilets by use of cameras is a specific perversion/porn category needs to be much greater.

Use of neutral pronouns (they/them) and using Mx as an honorific are perfectly reasonable things to do and fit in happily with my feminism. I think this will end up spreading, in fact they already are.

If I think of some more I'll add them.

This whole situation has made me much more honest with my own feelings. I have always felt uncomfortable about people leading others to believe they are something they aren’t- it’s disconcerting - like finding out a friend wasn’t truthful where they were raised or what they do for work or something. I may squash down that discomfort to be kind, it’s there - niggling.

I can understand that sometimes people don’t want to be disadvantaged by being known belong to a group with lower social status, like women in the past trying to pass as men to get into college, or disabled people not disclosing their disability on their dating profile, but if it’s the other way around, someone wanting to pass as belonging to a group with lower social status - an able-bodied person using a wheelchair, for example, because they prefer others to perceive and treat them as though they have a disability, it’s really hard for me to reconcile that, or want to indulge it. I can’t think of any other motivation than a self-absorbed sense of entitlement. The only exception I can think of is John Simpson wearing a burka so he would be perceived as female in order to report behind enemy lines.

I disagree with you OP when you say “transition is always going to exist, that it's part of the human condition” i really don’t get why you are so convinced, I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest it’s true, particularly because you go on to say “what sex we are is much less important than it used to be in daily life” - which I imagine means that you think that stereotypes and restrictive sex roles are on their way out. So how can the first statement/prediction be so certain? Since you can’t change your sex, what form is this transition from/to, going to take?

Regarding the pronouns thing - in situations where sex is important they/them/mx etc, can become problematic. Eg- you are booking an event with shared accommodation and there is no way to find out customers’ sex. While sexism persists it is probably not a good idea for women to have our sex displayed all over our email signature, so it isn’t harmless to normalise the practise.

@trytopullyoursocksup do you think that on the whole there should be lines that people don't cross in their judgements of others? Is "sexual misbehaviour" one of those lines? My worry is that in the making of everything acceptable, the boundaries that people need to push against for thrills get weaker and weaker. We see this in the increasingly disgusting scenarios put forward by the porn industry. In years gone by religion would have offered a moral compass. In current society who holds the moral compass, or should there not be one? Does any old thing go now?

The fact that you think sex is less important these days shows how low you've set your bar. Women's lives are still limited, threatened, made poorer and more insecure because of sex. It's not written into as many laws as it used to be but the effects are felt in every aspect of women's lives.

Sorry but that's a bit daft

I was trying to give a short but clearcut example, they often sound daft. I wont bore you with donkey sentences - now they really sound daft.

you'd quite naturally word it differently, probably just using Jane again.

Pronouns are shorthand so speakers don't have to recall "Jane". Pity those of us with aphasia.

The same sort of ambiguity exists with 'you', people seem to cope.

Yes, people would most likely evolve a way to cope if everyone used the same gender neutral and number neutral pronoun all the time. But switching around /he/she/singular they/plural they/ people are going to get tripped up all over the place.

I don't care if a trans person I cannot detect as trans uses the same loos as me.
This. If someone really does pass then I really don't think we'll ever know and so I don't really care. Most don't though and women have a right to single sex spaces. I actually found out yesterday that a trans woman at my running club uses the women's changing rooms. This person does not pass at all and was using the men's up until 2 years ago. Several women were uncomfortable with it but bizarrely (in my opinion) others said it was fine as he (sic) is now a woman but they wouldn't feel comforable with a man in the changing room 🤔. This room does not have sny cubicles and the showers are communal!

👏👏

@VestofAbsurdity I just mean the "ew" response I have already mentioned. "Sexual misbehaviour" means males in stereotypically feminine clothes or make up, people messing about with pronouns, etc. Some people are all "well do what you like if you don't call yourself a woman" some are "do what you like if you don't expect me to believe you are a woman" and some are just "'STOP IT". I don't have examples of the third, it's just a feeling that I see things to that effect on here sometimes.

I don't have examples of the third, it's just a feeling that I see things to that effect on here sometimes.

No examples, just a feeling yet you see fit to accuse posters of doing it, right.

@EndlessTea I agree with everything in your post. I feel the same.

If you say, it doesn't matter for toilets, then what about changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards etc. It needs to be one rule for all situations.

I don't quite agree with that. It needs to be different rules for different situations but one rule for all people. That's how safeguarding works. Of course toilets are very similar situations to changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards etc. So they will probably all need similar rules. But not necessarily exactly the same, there may be different mitigations. The rule might have to be different if there are only shared facilities, if there are some individual and some shared facilities, if there are only individual facilities. That's situation not people.

Regarding the pronouns thing - in situations where sex is important they/them/mx etc, can become problematic. Eg- you are booking an event with shared accommodation and there is no way to find out customers’ sex. While sexism persists it is probably not a good idea for women to have our sex displayed all over our email signature, so it isn’t harmless to normalise the practise.

If you're booking something with shared accommodation, a M/F tickbox should suffice. The fact that it may not (as we've seen with some people brazenly lying on the census) is the problem! Titles are neither here nor there since there are unready unsexed ones such as Dr or (nowadays) Rev.

The 'one rule for all situations' is just that sex is real, sometimes it matters and we need to be able to talk about it. There's a difference between talking about when and how male cleaners should be in the women's loos - that could be a real discussion, like discussing whether to have all-woman shortlists or girls schools - but if you decide to change the meaning of the word woman, you simply wipe out those discussions.

I don't care if a trans person I cannot detect as trans uses the same loos as me.

I might not care either, but that's not important, is it? What matters is that some women - likely the ones who've suffered some male-inflicted trauma - may be able to tell and will care.
Any decent male should be able to understand this and respect women's rights and need for single sex facilities. Some transwomen are capable of this, to their credit, so there's really no excuse for the others.

@JoodyBlue no I don't think it's right to just make everything acceptable. I do see what you are saying

I do agree @borogovia If we can't talk about it in plain language then we can't resolve it.

@trytopullyoursocksup thanks for responding. So my own view would be that conversations in general need to be had on this subject. Younger people need to hear many views before coming to their own conclusions on best ways to live for them. I do actually resist men claiming to be women for any reason because I feel it to be a lie. I can't lie, it makes me very uncomfortable. But there is a whole spectrum of acceptable opinion around that, which would differ from my own. I think they should all be in the mix. The problem now, is that the young are being constrained to one particular world view. It isn't healthy for anyone.

@VestofAbsurdity it's not an accusation. It's an observation that I've made over time, without making notes.
If you think it's an accusation, you must think it's bad - which is fine - I assume you don't do it then, so there is no accusation to you personally.

On the other hand, if you think it is fine to say that there are absolute lines about individuals' behaviour which society has a right to weigh in on (and I do think so too) AND, you think it is fine to extend these to individuals' sexual self expression - well then my observation holds up in at least one case, that is, the case of you.

If not you, I do think I have seen other posters imply that they think this. And that's their right. For instance, as we know, many religions have rules about this sort of thing and those are mainstream beliefs (it might not be a majority view in this country to be hold a religious belief, but's both legal and mainstream to be a member of a major religion)

Personally I am in a bit of a muddle because I don't think it is fair to rope innocent bystanders into your fetish, but I also don't feel like taking it upon myself to disapprove of how people present themselves. Which means there is a whole mess in the middle there which I can't unpick right now. In many ways the "STOP IT" view is cleaner and simpler.

If you think it is an "accusation" to say that some people here think that - why?

My worry is that in the making of everything acceptable, the boundaries that people need to push against for thrills get weaker and weaker.

@ErrolTheDragon exactly. Surely we all know this to be the case really? We all want to push the boundary a bit. So who holds it in place? Dread to think where we might all end up!!!!

To those of you talking about how there will always be some people who need to transition, and some people who pass, how do you see this working in practice, eg. should there be a transition process after which everyone agrees you have changed sex? Legally or socially? What should it entail? For instance, if enough people agree you pass, should you be able to claim that you are legally your new sex?
Or should there be a transition to a different legal and social status, with its own rights? How would that work?
Genuinely interested, as this is something I struggle with myself.

If you're booking something with shared accommodation, a M/F tickbox should suffice.

I was thinking more along the lines of being the booker for a group. So many informal groups have sprung up in the online world - say you are booking accommodation for a group of amateur astronomers, you have your spreadsheet in front of you with everyone’s details, if someone is down as Mx Alex Jones, you are going to feel a lot less comfortable asking their real sex than if they are Dr Alex Jones, since they are putting out the signal that their sex is a sensitive issue. You’d have to brace yourself for a massive headache and possible litigation if you try to do the right and fair thing by their potential roommates.

@trytopullyoursocksup I will own up and say that I am now of the "just stop it" brigade. Didn't used to be, but the boundary has been pushed so far, that is where I am. I still accept every individual I meet and try to get along with everyone, see everyone's human side. But in general the various men popping up on mainstream telly in women's clothes cause me to massively eye roll. I am fairly certain I am not alone. Also I know this admission would earn me a nasty name. Also I don't care anymore, I'm too far over it all!

I think all this is fair enough. I don't feel quite the same myself but I see how you would get there.

Tbh in the real world sounds like organising shared accommodation for people you don't actually know sounds like something to avoid anyway.

I give no shits how anyone 'self identifies'

I give a shit that I'm expected to provide validation for a man's self image that he's a woman over me knowing damn well that he isn't, or that we are expected to accept that women's spaces are now places for anyone who claims to have special womany feelings rather than being for females and mustn't complain that our boundaries are being forcibly removed.

I give a shit when a tiny minority have demanded society suddenly regroup themselves by some unprovable gender essence rather than by sex.

Why can't the genderists come to terms with their sex based reality rather than impose their beliefs of gender ideology onto everyone else?