Solving the transwomen in sports issue

[GeriSignfeld]

Out of the transgender arguments, this seems to be one that gets the most mainstream conversation.

Would it not be fairer & easier for athletic transwomen to:

1. Go off all blockers/hormones (as drugs are not allowed in sport)
2. Compete in the male division
3. We remove the male division & call it Open category

This way, women's rights are not being infringed upon & the transwomen are now in an inclusive "Open" category where everyone can compete fairly.

I would really love to put this to a transactivist to see what they would say to this idea & how it could possibly be seen as unfair.

They won't agree because the zealots insist that transwomen are literally women so must be competing in the womens division. It is much more unfair in their eyds for males to compete with other males than womens sports being trashed.

They don't want to. That's what it boils down to.

@Beowulfa True! A zealot would insist that anything less than entering the women's category is "literal" violence towards the transwoman's right to existence.

Just thought it would be a pretty simple solution & fair to everyone, as why should one category of person be allowed to take hormones & drugs to compete?

A biological woman would surely be disqualified if they were say, found to be taking testosterone.

So it seems fairer to remove drugs for all!

Many Transwoman want to compete in women's sports. Nothing else is acceptable.

Fairness is not a consideration for many of them.

Female boundaries are not respected and are there to be ignored at their will.

@PuttingDownRoots Yes, there doesn't seem to be much room with negotiation with this group.

Also it's not all sports really, just those based on physicality.

Eg: The shuffling teams in the recent Winter Olympics was mixed sex.

So there are sports that are inclusive & considered to be equal between men & women already!

@Live4weekend I feel like it's a combination of wanting to impose on women but also the mindset of professional athletes is often to win at any cost.

I mean the bike riders are giving themselves blood transfusions etc... drugs are rife in sport, so this kind of mentality is focused on winning at any cost.

Can imagine being a mediocre man in your category & having gender identity issues would make entering the women's category very appealing.

It's strange that all athletes have to make choices between their sport and their healthcare, choices between their sport and their religion, choices between their sport and their social life, choices between their sport and their conscience - except for Tw athletes. Instead the requirement to have to make any choice that might inconvenience them in their pursuit of whatever they want, is relieved utterly.

Some complain that it is unfair for them to have to reduce their testosterone. I agree. It is unfair to expect any person to modify their body in order to access women's spaces. It is unfair for any male to expect that they can have access to women's spaces.

This is quite right. Especially with the move by some sports towards a 2.5nmol/L T limit, there seemed to be quite a bit of pushback from TW athletes, saying that 2.5 was unachievable for TW [even though it's above the normal range for women]. But as you say, it's very common for sports people to have to make sacrifices to get into their preferred category. e.g. see this picture from the weekend, of a British boxer who's been boxing between 160 and 168 lbs [day-before weigh ins, with unlimited rehydration permitted] and who for a recent fight agreed - well into his 30s - to fight for the first time at 157lbs, with limited rehydration permitted. He looks, honestly, half dead in the picture but made the sacrifice to allow him to play in his chosen sporting category. Incidentally, the fight was called off when it turned out the other guy had been taking [women's] fertility drugs which positively impact testosterone.

twitter.com/ChrisEubankJr/status/1578871037214613504?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1578871037214613504%7Ctwgr%5E0d78b898fdff4f7686cb64e94a067c24a5cbe2d4%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsport%2Fboxing%2Farticle-11296541%2FCan-shredded-Chris-Eubank-Jr-displays-LEAN-physique-make-weight-Conor-Benn.html

There was a sport that recently created women category and open category, wasn't there?

The damage to females and their lives isn't an accidental side effect that is regrettable and would be avoided if possible. It's the front and centre sacrifice that is demanded to be large, visible and painful in order to prove how very much we all obey the One True Faith. If women aren't suffering and subordinated in order to right their original sin of daring to be born female, then it isn't being done right.

Eg: The shuffling teams in the recent Winter Olympics was mixed sex.

Do you mean curling? (Wondering how you make shuffling a sport)

It's been suggested, OP.

It should be up to TW to decide their priorities within a fair, sex-based framework. Jenner has demonstrated that it's possible for a transwoman to prioritise a sporting career at the highest level.

Other TW may not want to do that, but frankly that's their choice. Women athletes have to make all sorts of decisions and compromises relating to their fertility, whether/when to have kids etc.

You’re assuming those who campaign for transwomen to be included in women’s sports to give a shit about fairness to women.

they do not.

So it seems fairer to remove drugs for all!

Presumably drugs are generally prohibited if they are illegal or if they are likely to enhance an athlete's performance. Testosterone is a performance enhancing hormone. Blocking testosterone and taking oestrogen do not enhance performance. So that is why they would be treated differently.

Easy , they play in the men's category or they don't play.

They stop eroding women's boundaries so that women can have fairness in sport.

They won't agree because it's all about validation. Their belief is that by allowing them to take part in women's sports society has accepted that they are women.

Surely elite sports are about showcasing the absolute best that the human body can achieve. I would question the commitment of any athlete who would take hormones to reduce their natural ability just to achieve validation of their gender identity.

On the flip side - imagine if transmen could take testosterone to compete in the male category and they could take an amount within legal limits which would mean they could outperform men. How long before the cries of unfairness would be heeded?!

Lose the penis first and then we'll have a discussion.

For some reason the trans women competing don't seem keen on having anything irreversible done.

Obviously there's much more to advantages (which really stem from male puberty), but I want to see some commitment to the cheating, if men want to compete in women's categories the first step should be to lose the penis, then we'll see how many will be left after that.

I agree that Open and Biological Women categories make sense. For once, men can budge up and make room to be inclusive, not women, girls or disabled people.

I don't think transwomen would like it though for several key reasons:

1. It clearly says they are not women. Transmen would be fine.
2. Transwomen would be bottom of the field. Natal men would whup them, transmen might have higher testosterone and might beat them - transwomen would know they were beaten before even competing. (Ironically, not considered an important argument for Biological women competing with transwomen)
3. Transwomen could lose the team spirit and camaraderie of sport. (In this case, I am torn - we all want to belong but were women asked if they wanted their women's teams and changing rooms to include potentially fully intact males?)

We are always accused of being anti-trans, rather than pro-women. And I try to ensure that I come from a pro-women place because this debate can be polarising and toxic.

Perhaps all sportspeople should be asked on joining a club if they would be prepared to play with and against people of the opposite sex. If everyone says yes, happy days, off you go. If someone says no, then the club is declared single-sex under the Equality Act. Just a suggestion?

They don't care.

They would bring up a myriad of responses from the completely blind "TWAW end of story" to "the drugs align performance" to "but but but Michael Phelps".

Would it not be fairer & easier for athletic transwomen to:

Go off all blockers/hormones (as drugs are not allowed in sport)
Compete in the male division

They can do that already. They dont need an invitation.

We remove the male division & call it Open category

If it truly is an open category, call it open, but if its just for men with different gender identities, itll be a lie to call it anything other than male or mens category.

Yes of course the Open category is the sensible way forward.

Transmen can already compete in male competitions on testosterone.

Transmen would not necessarily 'be fine' in men's sports because women on testosterone are not constructed like men, hence why World Rugby said they should have to sign an individual waiver of liability before playing with men and that ultimately the referee can stop any player taking part if they believe they can't make the risk level acceptable.

British Rowing have created Open and Women's categories, which is great, but then says a woman is anyone who has declared female identity and has a testosterone level under 5nmol. Incidentally this could potentially exclude the occasional woman with PCOS, and if that were me (I was a rower with PCOS) I would sue the arse off them.

Whether someone has had surgery to their penis makes no difference to what sex they are.

Men, however they identify have no place in women's sports. Cut the bullshit. Hormone manipulation is an irrelevance

I would hope it would go without saying, that no one here should be responding to the request below asking for people to contact them on a personal email address.