Detransitioners are getting louder. This is heartbreaking

[GrabbyGabby]

I think the only thing in this whole shit show worse than sterilising and removing healthy body parts from children, is the shunning and silencing of those who regret what has been done to them, in order to protect the gender mill and keep pockets being lined. I cant wait until the jail sentences start coming.

twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1572387725596049409?t=xd8oFa-BQ5AxkXLDLlDUUg&s=19

Sorry for my blunt language. If I wasn't being clear, I was saying that I think trans people are fucked up and that trans people's dating pool is other trans people, primarily.

IMHO "fucked up" might be politically incorrect, but it is fair shorthand for someone suffering such severe mental health issues that they are willing to risk their long term health and fertility taking hormones that their body was not designed for, and in some cases to actually have body parts removed leaving them sexual non-functioning. If that is not fucked up I don't know what is. ANd that is before we consider how fucked up it is for men to demand access to get changed with pubescent girls or how fucked up it is to train others to threaten suicide, or demand others change their entire speech to reflect your "reality" that is the direct opposite of actual reality, or to promote an explicitly homophobic and misogynistic agenda.

My view is that there is a really fucked up pyramid scheme to this, where older trans people know that "normal" people don't find trans people attractive for physical / sexuality and personality reasons, they know that dating is near impossible for them and there is little or no sexual pleasure to be gained... and the only possible comfort they can get is in getting more (vulnerable, young) people in the club.

I think a lot of us GC types feel that way. TRAs think we're pearl clutching 1950s gender conformists fainting at the youth of today. When the opposite is true. We were those kids, life and experience worked things out and we can sniff a troubled teen trend a mile off.

I mean I think you’re conflating two issues here - being forced into dresses and skirts is also a bad thing. It’s not like being ‘met with the wooden spoon’ for saying you don’t like wearing dresses was somehow good. The point is kids (and adults) should be able to wear what they like without it somehow being reflective of them thinking their sex must be different.

I think anyone who detransitions is really very brave. It must be very difficult to admit you got it wrong and go against your support systems like that. It’s a shame they aren’t both presented to young people who are talking about being trans. They only really see the pro trans it’s great side, but I wish they were ado encouraged to research detransitioners too.

It wasn't considered abusive or literal violence to have to do it though. I mean I never understood why girls couldn't wear skirts but the whole thing also gave us as kids an argument to have. We were able to discuss it at times but we had to come up with an actual argument. Emotional blackmail wouldn't have been sufficient.

Its more that I think its reflective of the lack.of resilience, ability to discuss /debate etc

I dont agree with uniform at all really. And I of course do believe people should be able to wear what they want with out it being seen as some statement your not really a girl. But there's no denying that we are dealing with a level of entitlement, paranoia, and manipulation that I dont think we have really seen befire one that instead of being dealt with iscelebrated ajd pondered to. . I mean on one hand its great kids dont have to fight and argue with teachers /families the way we had to. But the flip side is i believe the younger generation have lost the ability to think for themselves or apply any critical thinking because once you threaten to hurt yourself or are safe in the knowledge you can call social services if expected ti wear a dress to a wedding when its not your " identity " there's no need to be able to discuss anything.

I do wonder if the resulting lack of bounderies, and the expectations that your identity is everyone else's problem is making a large contribution to current issues.

Part of growing up is pushing boundaries with your parents.

We have moved from " dont you dare go out with your skirt that short. Be back by 8.30" to telling kids yes when they say they are a boy. Yes they can take hormones. Yes you can have your breasts cut off. We think we are being kind akd supportive and liberal but when your boundaries don't even come into play when you talk irreversible surgery , what can kids push back against. It doesn't seem that kids today are any happier long term for it. And indeed are being allowed to make decisions they are regretting that cannot be undone.

What an intelligent, articulate young woman. I was particularly impressed by how succinctly she challenged the ideology that anyone who dares to even explore and question transitioning is a bigot and transphobic. That shift from unusual circumstance to doctrine is what makes me uncomfortable.

Those poor kids. They are so brave but we, as a society, have utterly failed them. We took perfectly healthy children who were emotionally struggling and sterilised them. It was evil. Heartbreaking 💔

This is spot on. It reminds me of a belief I have with regards cannabis. I believe that cannabis should be legalised for all sorts of reasons, and there is only one really good reason not to legalise it. The reason is that there is a section of society who, for whatever reason, make their money out of selling drugs and / or robbery / muggings etc. The main reason to keep cannabis illegal is that society is much better off if a big percentage of these criminal types are selling a realtively harmless drug, than if it were legalised and they were forced to sell crack or take up mugging or burglary instead.

Likewise it is good if teenagers are kept busy pushing against skirt length / tie length / only being allowed one earing per ear / the uniform full stop, and not pushing against long term harmful things.

Where’s this story on Huffpost and BBC, eh? For every detailed profile they’ve done of someone’s “brave” transition, they should also do a detailed profile of a detransitioner.

IMHO "fucked up" might be politically incorrect, but it is fair shorthand for someone suffering such severe mental health issues that they are willing to risk their long term health and fertility taking hormones that their body was not designed for, and in some cases to actually have body parts removed leaving them sexual non-functioning. If that is not fucked up I don't know what is.

Some of them are people with severe gender dysphoria that likely has a biopsychosocial set of causes who are undergoing the recommended treatment by the NHS. I just don’t think that’s helpful describing people being treated for some sort of diagnosable condition as being fucked up or only able to date fucked up people. Even if it is therapy that’s needed (which doesn’t seem to currently exist).

Imagine describing any other group of (non criminal) people like that. Race, religion, sexuality, disability, sexual orientation. Patients. You just wouldn’t do it. That’s my way of seeing it anyway.

urgh the odd 0.000001% wheeled out for regret. Yep its sad. But also fully informed. Their choice. Where are all these regretters? Yeah they just are not there. Regret is less then breast augmentation! Go figure that?

I think it's part of a wider tendency for parents to be very fearful of children being damaged by any opposition or boundaries from adults.

I can think of a few examples that seem to typify this I saw personally. One was a woman in a La Leche Legue group I attended for mothers nursing older babies and toddlers. Her toddler kept biting her and just was being very demanding, controlling, pinching, that kind of thing. I suggested that if he bit, she just say no and put him right down and do something else for a time, and that if she was very consistent it would extinguish the behavior quickly. She was aghast because in her mind breastfeeding needed to be totally child led and rejection would cause emotional damage. In another case a woman I knew had an anxious pre-schooler. One of her issues was she was afraid to sleep along, so she always slept with her parents. She came to stay with me for a while when her mum was ill, and I (being horrible) made her sleep alone (we did scaffold this), though she shared a room with my child. It was an adjustment but she did continue to sleep alone afterwards, and what I found notable was she was happier and well rested, because she stopped being scared and was more comfortable. But the mum had been afraid to do this as it contradicted the attachment parenting she had been very influenced by.

The idea that there must be total support for the child's perceptions is wider than just gender.

being forced into dresses and skirts is also a bad thing.

Why?

It's just a bit of clothing. It's not painful, it is temporary, it doesn't affect the inner you.

Most people historically have had few about clothes because everyone wore pretty much the exact same thing. In many places including men and women. No one's inner being was invalidated because of this.

Certain things are conventionally worn for certain types of activities, even where it is not mainly practical.

I think people are far better off psychologically to have the experience of realizing that who they are isn't compromised by wearing something they don't like, that sometimes it's reasonable to do something that isn't your own preference and that will not cause a personality breakdown.

I think it's part of a wider tendency for parents to be very fearful of children being damaged by any opposition or boundaries from adults

Ironically the opposite is true in reality.

I remember being a teen and it was often a good thing when your parents said no. You could kick off, yell and pretend to be angry whilst simultaneously being relieved they said no and thankful you could blame your parents when asked why didnt you go to the party/where were you last night etc. You'd never admit it in a million years but deep down you knew that it was a bad idea to do something you just didnt want to look bad in front of your peers so acted angry and your parents took it.

As parents we take the hit that way. We take the yelling and the insults and the title of strict/party pooper/over protective etc because if it's a choice between that and our children doing things they aren't ready fir no matter how grown up they think they are its a no brainer.

There are lots of things kids want to do..stay up late . Watch unsuitable movies play unsuitable games. Eat junk food. Jump on beds. Make a huge mess.

In reality if you allowed that fir any length if time you'd have malnourished over/underweight kids who were hyperactive through lack of proper sleep. Nightmares from the games and movies and undesirable behaviour such as violence etc as little brains are easily influenced from outside sources

That causes more damage than a bed time and an " eat your vegetables "

urgh the odd 0.000001% wheeled out for regret.

Yay, Mishy maths!

Let's run those numbers.

UK population: 60,000,000-odd?

0.000001% of 60,000,000 is: 0.6

So Mishy reckons there'd be less than 1 detransitioner in the UK, IF EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAD TRANSITIONED.

Let's try again, and assume we've got, I don't know, 30,000 transitioners? Tavistock's been seeing like >2000 patients a year, let's say half transition, plus historic ones, so 30,000 is kind of the right ballpark. Within a power of ten, at least.

So Mishy reckons that of that 30,000, 0.0003 of them will regret. We've got 0.3 millidetransitioners, or 300 microdetransitioners.

Doesn't quite seem to fit the observed data. I've certainly seen more than 1 whole UK detransitioner on YouTube. We can reach about 0.1% just by counting people who've spoken up about this somewhat publicly. And there must be many who aren't public for every one who is.

It's almost as if someone was just hammering the '0' key for effect or something. Don't take up a statistics career. Or engineering. Or anything important, please.

Stonewall and Mermaids are urging everyone to campaign for a ban on ‘conversion therapy’ as if children are being subjected to shame, mind control techniques, exorcism etc as in the old ‘cure homosexuality’ attempts of various churches.

Which of course is not happening.

What they want to ban is any support for exploring the roots of dysphoria. Exploring WHY a child like Chloe might want her breasts gone (sexual assault), or whether Susie Green’s child might have felt they would rather be the ‘right gender’ to play with dolls and be attracted to males than be derided and rejected by their father and the cause of rows between the parents.

If pre pubescent and adolescent children think they look too fat, we don’t ‘affirm’, we treat anorexia.

Resisting gender ideology in terms of protecting womens spaces is a feminist issue.

The right care for children with gender dysphoria is a mental health issue.

@Kanaloa

"I think anyone who detransitions is really very brave. It must be very difficult to admit you got it wrong and go against your support systems like that. It’s a shame they aren’t both presented to young people who are talking about being trans. They only really see the pro trans it’s great side, but I wish they were ado encouraged to research detransitioners too"

I think there's a real vulnerability in some of them and many could easily be influenced to make decisions either way.

To add another level of complicated, I've noticed a religious element creeping in because some of the youtube detransitioners mention a new parter who is religious/ that they have recently joined a church, found God, Jesus etc around the time of their detransition. I worry that some are vulnerable to influence from all sides, and that many could be pressured or coerced to detransitioning which is causing further harm.

Perhaps the finding of a partner, or a comforting faith, allows them to explore accepting themselves for who they actually are. Ironically.

I'd hate to think they were being pressured again, just in a different direction.

The thing is, young adults try stuff out.
They try out high maintenance glamour looks, then realise life's a lot simpler without it.
They try out edgy looks, then find success at work is a more important focus for their creativity.

That isn't to say everything young people do is temporary- of course not but many do move on from the passions of their late teens and early twenties.

Because there’s no reason for it. Children, like anyone else, are people. Acting like being ‘threatened with the wooden spoon’ because you don’t want to wear a fancy dress was the good old days is daft, and wouldn’t help matters at all. The issue isn’t people wanting or not wanting to wear certain clothes - it’s the idea that wanting or not wanting to wear certain clothes somehow affects your sex that’s the issue. Placing such importance on girls wearing a dress that you’d threaten them with being hit if they refuse only strengthens the idea that girls must wear x.

@containsnuts

Yes possibly they’ve been equally influenced the opposite way. I still think it’s brave to admit you got something wrong. I think part of the problem sign the whole movement is that once the person has said they want to be trans it can be very hard to then change their mind/admit it was wrong.

It's almost as if someone was just hammering the '0' key for effect or something. Don't take up a statistics career. Or engineering. Or anything important, please.

Laughing at your post Necessary.

But the callousness shown here by MishyJDI needs to be repeated over and over again.

urgh the odd 0.000001% wheeled out for regret. Yep its sad. But also fully informed. Their choice. Where are all these regretters? Yeah they just are not there. Regret is less then breast augmentation! Go figure that?

Why do you hate detransitioners so much Mishy?

Why do you ignore the plight of these people who are so often traumatised and vulnerable people, and a growing number starting as teens and are so clearly dismissing them?

So much hate in that statement there Mishy.

You are treating wearing clothes like it is a defining thing. Something that is minor as if it is major, telling kids something that is well within tolerance for everyone is traumatic.

Society does have certain conventions and traditions, and that is not harmful to people. Children are people, not adults, and they rely on adults to help them navigate what things are important, and what aren't.

It's not bad for kids to learn that sometimes we do things for other people, like wear the dress grandma gave us, because she loves us. And that isn't harmful.

It really shouldn't be surprising that we have all these kids who require so much validation, we've taught them to think and feel that way.

We’ll need to agree to disagree. For me it’s important to allow children agency in small ways - being allowed to dress how they want rather than being threatened with violence to wear gendered clothing to please others isn’t leading to the trans issue. The idea that in the ‘good old days’ being threatened with the wooden spoon to wear a dress was somehow a great thing that led to character building is incorrect to me.