Existential Angst

[InterestingUsernameTBC]

Events at work this week and the discussion here re: Nicola Sturgeon have reignited my recurring feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness.

To express perfectly reasonable, understandable, logical, evidenced concerns about the harms that come from self-ID and to have that all just dismissed.

I really fear for the society my daughters are growing up in and I feel utterly powerless to do anything about it. The march towards self-ID feels inevitable. And I just can't envisage a reasonable outcome.

How do we create a society that recognises and accepts all those people who, for whatever reason, want to deny their sex whilst simultaneously recognising and accepting all those people who, for whatever reason, want to (or can't help but...) recognise sex?

We can all accept people of other religious beliefs, and make accommodations for them to hold and practice their beliefs because there is no obligation on us to participate in those beliefs or any associated rituals in everyday life. (Totally understandable to observe rituals you may not believe in when you're in someone else's religious space. And as a society we do allow people to have religious spaces.)

But with self-ID we are all expected to participate in an individual's belief about themselves. We are all asked to participate in their rituals through the use of pronouns. Their 'religious space' as we might see it, becomes society itself. So where do those of us who don't share that belief system fit into society?

I'm not sure there is an answer because you're trying to find a reasonable solution to an unreasonable problem. I hope the answer will be that we re-draw boundaries based on biological sex but become more accepting of individual expression ie you can be a man and wear make-up, it doesn't make you a woman! But I'm not holding my breath!

I get the existential angst though. I'm a lifelong feminist and Labour voter only to discover I agree with Donald Trump and Boris Johnson on gender! Very distressing

Agree with both of you.

I think you could say that most feelings of trans-ness are themselves a form of existential angst.

Existential angst seems to be a normal part of human existence. Most of us suffer it to some degree or another, centred on various issues. But most of us get in with life, sometimes exploring it, sometimes embracing it, sometimes not. It's unusual that a few expect the rest of society to resolve their personal angst for them. They rarely have the power to control others. But not in the case of this variety.

I think the problem is that humans can cope with problems, set-backs and unfairness (three things that most of us are facing most of the time)... so long as there is a sense that as a society and as a species we are moving forward. When we look around and it seems like things are moving backwards not forwards then those problems, set-backs and unfairness hit us so much harder.

Not sure my friend's parents would agree with you. They consider existential angst to be a luxury indulged in by people whose fundamental needs are secure. My friend's parents are Holocaust survivors.

The problem with that kind of thinking is that there's always someone to one up you. I suffered a parental bereavement but other people have had it worse in other ways. It's not a competition.

No, it's not a competition. But I do think they have a point.

From Wikipedia:

Existentialism (/ˌɛɡzɪˈstɛnʃəlɪzəm/[1] /ˌɛksəˈstɛntʃəˌlɪzəm/[2]) is a form of philosophical inquiry that explores the problem of human existence and centers on the subjective experience of thinking, feeling, and acting.[3][4] Existentialist thinkers frequently explore issues related to the meaning, purpose, and value of human existence. In the view of an existentialist, the individual's starting point has been called "the existential angst", a sense of dread, disorientation, confusion, or anxiety in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world.[5]

"Existential angst", sometimes called existential dread, anxiety, or anguish, is a term common to many existentialist thinkers.[47] It is generally held to be a negative feeling arising from the experience of human freedom and responsibility.

I think the term fits with what I'm experiencing.

Imagine telling a trans person that their beliefs in their ideology are "luxury" because some people were in the Holocaust!
Oh my goodness.

TBC i often feel like that as well. I also feel like that about climate change and disintegrating ecosystems (I work in that area)
I do agree with Jelly that if people are wondering where their next meal is coming from, and worrying about whether they’ll still be alive in the morning, that doesn’t leave room for any of this stuff, so it is sort of a luxury.
OTOH, if nobody is considering these things, then you suddenly realise the whole world’ has changed while you weren’t watching, not in a good way; and it’s too late to do anything about it.
I think all we can do is stay positive, stay strong & keep fighting. Read what you can, share what you learn, develop your arguments so they’re strong and if you can do a bit of gardening that does seem to be getting some good results. Also, take care of yourself, if you need to take a break, then take one. When you’re feeling stronger you can cover for someone else. It’s a relay ultra-marathon not a sprint! 💐💐💐

When you’re feeling stronger you can cover for someone else. It’s a relay ultra-marathon not a sprint!

Absolutely.

"The unexamined life is not worth living". Existentialism has its place in improving our lives, but being overwhelmed by angst does not improve anyone's life.

Wise words Jellysaurus

I thought it was an entirely valid and well articulated point.

You are right about the the ideology bit though, or was it a freudian slip and you meant identity?

yes I agree

I do share the angst, at times despair, that society is going backwards.

Then I think, hey! remember what happened with smoking in public! and I feel a little tiny bit better.

Women's rights are always somewhere between the ball being on the long grass or being in the long game, so fed up!

Thanks for the replies everyone. Bit of a revelation this morning. I've pinpointed the crux of the issue. You can't simultaneously respect everyone's right not to believe in gender identity whilst at the same time expecting everyone to go along with gender identities. You just can't. There is no solution that allows both of these to be function at the same time.

In the same way as we can't respect everyone's right to hold racist views whilst simultaneously expecting everyone to not be racist. As a society we've decided that we don't respect racist views. That's how we've solved that dichotomy.

With sex and gender, as a society, we are tussling over which way we're going to fall. Do we continue to respect everyone's right not to believe? Or do we expect everyone to go along with it? And if we're expecting everyone to go along with it what are the sanctions if they don't?

We have a stand-off.
One side says, if you respected my belief you would use my pronouns.
The other responds, if you respected my lack of belief you wouldn't ask me to.

I can't know where this will end up and that is a source of anxiety sometimes. But being able to articulate the issue is really helpful. I will continue to remind people that the law protects non-belief whilst demonstrating that non-belief is totally compatible with respect and compassion for everyone.

No stand-off.

Do we continue to respect everyone's right not to believe? Or do we expect everyone to go along with it?

One of those perspectives is respectful, the other is disrespectful.

The question is do we want a respectful society or a dictatorial theocracy? There are plenty ofexamples of dictatorial theocracies in both the present and in our history. Are they something to emulate?

And we do have examples of belief and unbelief functioning side by side. Here in the UK Jews can freely practice their religion, despite being a tiny minority believing and practicing differently to the rest of the country. You are not required to profess any of their beliefs, or follow any of their practices. All that is required of you is to ensure they have the same freedom to practice their beliefs as you have to practice your Christian beliefs (or atheist beliefs), as long as their practice of their beliefs causes you no harm or distress.

We are not required to follow any of their practices.

Exactly. Using pronouns to refer to gender identity rather than sex is a practice of the belief in gender identity, is it not? Pronouns existed way before gender identity did.

And there is nothing disrespectful about observing someone's sex. Most of the time we cant help it. It can't possibly be disrespectful to notice someone's sex.

The question is do we want a respectful society or a dictatorial theocracy?

How dictatorial is it to insist that people deny the evidence of their own eyes with regards to someone's sex?

I don't think you have the existential angst, InterestingUsernameTBC. I think the people with existential angst are the ones trying to square the circle. You, together with other GC people, have no issue accepting that there is a plurality of beliefs, and that nobody should be penalised for holding or not holding a belief, nor be given power over others due to their belief. Straightforward. It's people struggling with their own beliefs who have the existential angst.

Imagine telling a trans person that their beliefs in their ideology are "luxury" because some people were in the Holocaust!
Oh my goodness.

oh it sodding is

Thanks for your diagnosis, JellySaurus. I assure you this matter does affect my mental health sometimes.

JellySaurus, your posts are ambiguous and don't immediately align you with one side or the other. I think I may have initially interpreted your words from the opposite perspective.

The angst kicks in when events suggest that society will inevitably be reorganised around the concept of gender identity over sex. Events like the pushing forward of self-ID in Scotland and the possibility of Labour following suit if they take power again. The angst is, how do you fit into a society that is intent on making your thoughts illegal?

I don't mean to denigrate your mental health in any way. We're in a hideous position and, yes, I worry about our future, too. I have just dispatched a vulnerable dd to a university that is soaked in Stonewall rainbows.

I'm not sure what you find ambiguous about my position on the rights of women and vulnerable people, nor about the rights of people to believe or disbelieve what they want.

Yes I think that this is an important insight. I would say that the law (and my personal morality) upholds someone's right to believe that there is such a thing as gender identities and to think that they are important.

I (and anyone else) remain completely free to not care. I am free to walk down the street and not pander to the ego and feelings of anyone. I do not have a legal obligation to care about the feelings of people who clearly do not care for my feelings.