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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stage 1 Report on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill

31 replies

Criticycle · 06/10/2022 13:08

twitter.com/SP_EHRCJ/status/1577925426512551936

The Scottish government appears to be going ahead with gender recognition reform even though it's highly unpopular.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 06/10/2022 13:25

'Key changes made by the Bill

The Bill, if passed, amends the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to reform the grounds and procedure for obtaining legal gender recognition. Applicants must either have been born in Scotland or be ordinarily resident here.

The Bill repeals sections 1 to 8 of the GRA which deal with the grounds and procedures for applying for GRCs and for the issuing of full or interim certificates.

The key differences between the current grounds and procedure and those provided for in the Bill are:

The removal of the requirement for an applicant to have gender dysphoria and therefore the removal of the requirement for medical reports;

A reduction in the minimum age for applicants from 18 to 16 years old;

The removal of the GRP from the process. Applications will be made instead to the Registrar General for Scotland;

A reduction in the period for which an applicant must have lived in their acquired gender before submitting an application from 2 years to 3 months;

The introduction of a mandatory 3-month reflection period; and

The introduction of a new duty placed on the Registrar General to report on an annual basis, the number of applications for GRCs and the number granted.

The Bill also creates a specific offence of knowingly making a false statutory declaration in an application for a GRC and creates an offence of knowingly including information which is false. A person who commits such an offence is liable to imprisonment for up to two years and/or a fine.'

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2022 13:26

'The Equality Act

The Bill does not make changes to public policy or to the 2010 Equality Act, which includes a number of exceptions which allow for trans people to be excluded when this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

The Equality Act 2010 makes it generally unlawful to discriminate against people who have a “protected characteristic”, as defined under the Act. These protected characteristics include both “sex” and “gender reassignment”. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment is not restricted to those with a Gender Recognition Certificate or who have undergone any specific treatment or surgery. The Equality Act is discussed in further detail in this report at paragraphs 404-473.

The Scottish Government has stated that this means single-sex services are protected as are single-sex employment rights and health services. The Scottish Government has also stated that it supports these exceptions and that the Bill does not make any changes to these.

Further information can be found in the policy memorandum and explanatory notes accompanying the Bill. A detailed SPICe briefing on the Bill can be found here.'

PriOn1 · 06/10/2022 13:42

Depressing but no suprise.

Namechangeforthis88 · 06/10/2022 13:52

I can never understand what is meant by:
"The Equality Act 2010 makes it generally unlawful to discriminate against people who have a “protected characteristic”, as defined under the Act."
Everyone has protected characteristics, everyone! How can you not have an age?

Namechangeforthis88 · 06/10/2022 13:53

I think they mean - unlawful to discriminate on the basis of any protected characteristic.

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2022 14:22

Yeah. I have the feeling the whole Act needs to be rewritten. Lots of terms need to be better defined.

OldCrone · 06/10/2022 15:46

The Bill also creates a specific offence of knowingly making a false statutory declaration in an application for a GRC and creates an offence of knowingly including information which is false. A person who commits such an offence is liable to imprisonment for up to two years and/or a fine.

Nobody could ever be prosecuted for making such a false declaration. How could you prove that a person saying they intend to live as a man/woman was lying at the time? They are making a declaration about a feeling they have at the time of making the declaration, and there is no definition of how anyone lives as a man or a woman. The only person who knows whether this declaration is true is the person themself. It could never be proven by anyone else that the declaration was false.

The only way anyone could commit this offence is by confessing to doing it.

They really haven't thought this through.

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2022 16:00

Yep. It just sounds generally ominous. Might put off honest upstanding people.

Not so much anyone with flexible morals.

Hoardasurass · 06/10/2022 19:14

Funny that the Scottish government have said specifically that a male person with a GRC is legally a female person when talking about the protected characteristic of SEX in the equality act in the equal representation Bill and are going to court to defend their stance (they already lost a case about this and will again) yet they claim that a grc makes no difference to a trans person's rights in law so no problem for women or our single sex spaces a bit contradictory really

PuttingDownRoots · 06/10/2022 19:19

Does Scotland have the "spousal veto" (i.e the right to remove yourself from the marriage) and is that addressed at all?

Ramblingnamechanger · 06/10/2022 19:20

Note to Nicola and co. A GRC does not mean you are the opposite sex. Utter dangerous nonsense.

rogdmum · 06/10/2022 19:25

I think all we can do now is hope the U.K. govt intervenes over their concerns about the cross border issues

Hoardasurass · 06/10/2022 19:26

@Ramblingnamechanger agree so did the EHRC and the high court in Scotland but FPFWS is still having to take them back to court over it they have a vegetable patch that will tell you all about it

Signalbox · 06/10/2022 19:34

The Bill, if passed, amends the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to reform the grounds and procedure for obtaining legal gender recognition. Applicants must either have been born in Scotland or be ordinarily resident here.

So a friend of mine, who was born in Scotland but only lived there for 3 months and has spent the rest of her life in the southeast of England, would be eligible? Presumably the GRC would only be recognised in Scotland and the person would need to have x2 birth certificates.

Signalbox · 06/10/2022 20:32

On the Beeb...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533

ResisterRex · 06/10/2022 21:13

Hopefully this is the right thread for this. The Stonewall take:

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1578032038267219971?s=46&t=Hd7fm8zVgOIRLZH6QlW_iw

"Today we've seen positive steps towards trans equality in Scotland. 🎉

What do changes to the Gender Recognition Act mean? Find out below. ⬇️

💻 Ask your Scottish friends to email their MSPs to back the Bill before 27 Oct using our handy tool!"

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2022 22:18

Excellent open letter to Nicola Sturgeon on Twitter -

twitter.com/CleverclogsNina/status/1578066847114690563?s=20&t=UB2Grm1fM8hO-1-qm8UDKw

ArabellaScott · 06/10/2022 23:20

Great letter.

Fandangoes · 07/10/2022 11:45

Can someone explain this to me? I understand it is deliberately misleading but would like a better understanding of the true facts. Is that because anybody can ALREADY do these things with the laws as they are just now?

 Stage 1 Report on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
ArabellaScott · 07/10/2022 13:22

'change who can access changing rooms, toilets, shelters' - theoretically orgs can invoke a single sex exemption according to the EA. And a GRC has no impact on that. In practise, nobody seems to invoke the exception and we have de facto self ID - see the CEO of a rape crisis centre who is a male without a GRC, etc.

'impact on who can compete in sports teams' - probably true, this is all down to individual sporting bodies, and varies but is based either on biological sex, or on testosterone levels.

'change people's ability to alter name and gender on passports' - I'd imagine making it easier to obtain a GRC would make it easier to change other documents, but then it seems people often work in the opposite direction, changing documents in order to obtain a GRC.

Some of the issues with the Scottish proposals are:

If a male has a GRC they go to a female prison, without risk assessment or any other checks. They are treated EXACTLY as a female.

Lowering the age to 16. For obvious reasons.

Removing the requirement for a medical diagnosis fundamentally changes our understanding of what 'changing sex' is. It presents sex as something we choose according to an indefinable inner feeling. Yes, we already have de facto 'self ID' operating in many situations, this is what has led to males being housed in female wards in hospitals, mixed sex changing rooms, etc. This is has led to sexual assaults, voyeurism, and women self excluding from various services and groups.

The reforms have taken no account of the many people who raised issues - for example women of various faiths who are forbidden from sharing spaces etc with males, disabled women who require female only care, women with PTSD who are triggered by males, etc. All of these issues were raised, but all seem to have been so far dismissed.

ArabellaScott · 07/10/2022 13:23

IANAL and that is all my limited understanding, of course.

Fandangoes · 07/10/2022 13:48

Thank you! Makes sense

ResisterRex · 07/10/2022 18:41

This approach...I've no words:

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1578396502422061059?s=46&t=TU1vTjnDeKPlJoSefu_Ypg

"MSP committee charged with scrutinising GRR (Scotland) bill has dismissed evidence from the Cass Review.

"the Cass Review’s findings do not relate to Scotland, being focussed on England only and concern the provision of gender identity healthcare there""

As a reply queries:

twitter.com/noxyinxxprisons/status/1578438412981657600?s=46&t=TU1vTjnDeKPlJoSefu_Ypg

"But international evidence was accepted when it was assessed as supporting the Bill?"

ArabellaScott · 07/10/2022 19:11

I want to know that MSPs name.

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