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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour Party Conference

75 replies

MaMaLa321 · 26/09/2022 14:24

I know that there is a hell of a lot going on elsewhere, but what's happening with Gender Issues (for want of a better phrase) at Labour Party Conference?
Last year, it was an enormous issue, and the year before that. I'm assuming that Labour are forging ahead with Self-ID and hoping that voters are so desperate that they will put up with it.

OP posts:
Ofcourseshecan · 27/09/2022 20:25

ArabellaScott · 27/09/2022 09:16

www.lwn.org.uk/trans_inclusion_policy

'LWN’s rules state that we welcome all those who “self-define as women” into our membership and our women-only training and events, and this has always been our proud practice. LWN rejects all forms of transphobia, including intimidation, threats of violence and denial of trans identities. LWN believes women only spaces are an important part of women’s self-organisation, and we continue to organise events and conferences open to all women. We believe these discussions should be conducted in a sisterly and respectful way, and we call out abuse against women in public life wherever we see it as part of our #diffuseabuse campaign.'

Ah, there it is again. We believe in women's single sex spaces that also include males.

It’s laughable, and yet I feel more like crying.

And then offering my support to anyone setting up a new left-wing party that doesn’t despise women.

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 20:36

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/09/2022 17:58

What is your "good faith argument" in telling the women on this board that JW is not a TRA despite him being a textbook case @MangyInseam?Hmm

When you make totally imaginary claims like that that I start to think you are almost certainly a troll.

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 20:39

YouSirNeighMmmm · 27/09/2022 17:26

The tories are clearly ahead of labour on this issue, but if they can;t keep male sex offenders out of women's prisons today despite being in power for 12 years (IIRC) then they are spectacularly incompetent, so incompetent that the only people you can trust less are people like Keir Starmer who leads a party who pretty much have misogyny on page one of their manifesto.

What's the mechanism for this, when it comes down to brass tacks?

To what extent is ministerial direction something that can be applied in this in a direct way, or would that be crossing lines that are there for important reasons?

And to what extent is the civil service trying to protect a cause they have embraced by digging in their heels?

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/09/2022 22:13

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 20:36

When you make totally imaginary claims like that that I start to think you are almost certainly a troll.

I'm not denying the past 12 years of political history in the UK.
I'm not denying that fact Self ID was a Tory policy.
I'm not trying to misrepresent our parliamentary system to exonerate the Tories of the damage they've done by introducing and implementing Self ID.
I'm not the one denying the presence of a TRA ticking time bomb.
And I'm not the one shouting "look a squirrel at those people over there in Labour" as our rights are destroyed under this government.

But I may have confused you with @FOJN. Apologies @MangyInseam.Thanks Oh, and I'm not a troll. Been a mnetter for over 12 years, NC'd less than half a dozen times.

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/09/2022 22:21

So what's actually going on at the conference ?

FemaleAndLearning · 27/09/2022 22:30

We believe these discussions should be conducted in a sisterly and respectful way
Is this the new be kind slogan? No man is my sister.

I heard a bit of Dreamy Starmer's speech. I felt I was listening to Rapunzel when she sings "I have a dream" in the duckling pub. Honestly, I thought someone was going to start singing kum by ar my lord and start shaking tambourines. A right load of rubbish. But as I said I only heard a bit of it on the radio.

Labour are just too sexist for my liking and I've always voted lib Dems, labour or green. I won't be voting for any of them at the next election.

FOJN · 27/09/2022 23:49

I'm not denying the past 12 years of political history in the UK.

To deny it you would need to know it first but you just make stuff up. You apparently don't know the difference between the ECHR and EHRC so I'm having trouble taking you seriously. What is also fairly obvious is that any knowledge you do have on this subject you have learned from the replies you receive here. I am not convinced you care enough about this issue to have properly informed yourself.

I have supplied the details of the Secretary of State for Justice on the thread about the convicted male sex offender being sent to a women's prison, perhaps you'd like to let him know how outraged you feel, I will be.

Please stop @ me on threads, I'm here, it's just clogs up my burner email inbox which I receive no notifications from.

MangyInseam · 28/09/2022 00:17

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/09/2022 22:13

I'm not denying the past 12 years of political history in the UK.
I'm not denying that fact Self ID was a Tory policy.
I'm not trying to misrepresent our parliamentary system to exonerate the Tories of the damage they've done by introducing and implementing Self ID.
I'm not the one denying the presence of a TRA ticking time bomb.
And I'm not the one shouting "look a squirrel at those people over there in Labour" as our rights are destroyed under this government.

But I may have confused you with @FOJN. Apologies @MangyInseam.Thanks Oh, and I'm not a troll. Been a mnetter for over 12 years, NC'd less than half a dozen times.

You are constantly spamming discussions on things like LP policy, is pretty transparent however long you've been around..

TooBigForMyBoots · 28/09/2022 14:08

My agenda is Women's Rights, not party politics. Not sure about yours.Hmm

dunBle · 29/09/2022 02:58

TooBigForMyBoots · 28/09/2022 14:08

My agenda is Women's Rights, not party politics. Not sure about yours.Hmm

Then perhaps you could stop derailing a thread about the Labour party by wanging on about the Tories, and instead make some suggestions as to how we can get the Labour party to do better on women's rights.

FlowersBloomInAutumn · 29/09/2022 03:42

Yes. Labour really do need to know that 50%+ of their electorate are female, girls and women, old-fashioned and yet eternal cunty types, no cocks.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 10:32

Why focus on Labour @dunBle, they can't do anything. The Tories can, they have the power to fix this by Christmas, but they're not. I don't want to wait two years. I want this fixed now.

Needmoresleep · 29/09/2022 11:09

Why focus on Labour

Because the thread is about Labour.

If you want to talk about Tories start a new thread. Otherwise it looks as if you are deliberately obstructing constructive discussion about an important topic.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 11:37

What can Labour do to reverse the loss of women's rights due to the Conservative policy of Self ID?

Chersfrozenface · 29/09/2022 11:42

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 11:37

What can Labour do to reverse the loss of women's rights due to the Conservative policy of Self ID?

Set out their proposed actions to do just that in their manifesto, for starters.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 12:01

I mean, what can Labour do to reverse the loss of women's rights now? It will be too late by the end of this Tory government term.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 12:02

A Labour manifesto isn't going to change anything.🤷‍♀️

Chersfrozenface · 29/09/2022 12:13

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 12:02

A Labour manifesto isn't going to change anything.🤷‍♀️

So because Labour isn't in power NOW, it should take no steps to show to that it would uphold women's rights if it did get into power? Have I got that right?

And yet it's been talking enough this last week about all the other things it would do if it got into power.

Floisme · 29/09/2022 12:16

Reading back, I think this was an important point by Mangy:

And to what extent is the civil service trying to protect a cause they have embraced by digging in their heels?

lechiffre55 · 29/09/2022 12:19

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 12:01

I mean, what can Labour do to reverse the loss of women's rights now? It will be too late by the end of this Tory government term.

They could start upholding Women's rights within the Labour party. That would be a very small start. Who trusts them to uphold women's rights in government when they can't even do it among themselves?
They should be putting pressure on the Tories over women's rights not the other way around. It's an utterly shambolic state nof affairs right now.
Of course to uphold women's rights Labour is going to have to work out what a woman is, because that seems to be causing them all sorts of difficulties right now!
May you would prefer uterus haver's rights or menstruator's rights?

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/09/2022 12:19

Chersfrozenface · 29/09/2022 12:13

So because Labour isn't in power NOW, it should take no steps to show to that it would uphold women's rights if it did get into power? Have I got that right?

And yet it's been talking enough this last week about all the other things it would do if it got into power.

It absolutely should. But what difference will that make? What difference would Labour renouncing their gender woo make to women in the UK?

Needmoresleep · 29/09/2022 13:12

I think the general analysis is that the Tories got into self-ID without really thinking it through. Like many organisations they were caught napping and essentially delegated policy making to their "experts" which included Penny Mordaunt (whose twin brother was engaged to a Scottish TRA), Maria Miller and Helen Belcher. There was a lot of lobbying behind the scenes (the Dentons masterplan) and they saw a gap was opening up between them, Labour, the SNP and the Greens. Having got caught on the "wrong side of history" on gay marriage, they allowed Maria and Penny to run with it, and assumed it was uncontroversial. Theresa and and others were pretty preoccupied with Brexit.

It was only when the Self-ID consultation exploded with thousands of responses from the Tory voting shires (and everywhere else) that the Tories realised they had a problem. Good reporting from some brave journalists on The Times, the Mail, and the Spectator helped, as well as the efforts of David TC Davis MP who for a long time was the only MP willing to stick his head above the parapet.

Since then there has been an interesting roll back. Liz became Women's Minister, something she held onto despite having other roles, and has put good people in place. Jackie Doyle-Price on the Women's and Equalities Committee, though they are still stuck with Caroline Noakes as Chair and with Elliot Colburn, plus obviously a lot of non GC Labour and LD members. Kishwer Falkner as Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Cabinet colleagues including, finally, Boris, came round and the Cass report was delivered along with a raft of guidance for schools, about the use of Stonewall etc. All done without exposing the Tory party to the sort of abuse which might have caused the uninformed "be kind" brigade to think that the Tories had remained "the nasty party" on LGBT issues. There is momentum. The hope is that it will continue. Just about every organisation in the country was captured. There is a hell of a lot of ground to reclaim.

It is important that Labour also open itself up to debate. I have heard Labour Councillors say privately that they are GC, but dare not say this publicly. If they could and there is an acceptance that there is a clash of rights and a need to look at women's sports, the safeguarding of vulnerable women in jails, hostels etc, and a sensible policy on medical treatment for minors, we could have a reasoned and calm societal debate and find a sensible resolution within the life of this parliament. But Labour are stuck on TWAW and will do nothing to support the Tories on this.
I have no idea what our posters motives are, but Tory bashing on threads designed to discuss Labour policy is not the way to go.

I also think that if it were not for this issue we would have Penny not Liz as PM. Labour should take note. It is an electoral issue.

FOJN · 29/09/2022 13:22

It absolutely should. But what difference will that make? What difference would Labour renouncing their gender woo make to women in the UK?

We'd stop feeling so utterly disenfranchised. I can't wait to have an alternative to the Tories or spoiling my ballot.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/09/2022 13:45

Labour renouncing genderwoo would mean I had someone to vote for.

DelurkingLawyer · 29/09/2022 15:01

I had hoped to attend conference and had a ticket for the LWD event, but couldn’t go.

I wanted to ask how the LWD meeting with Keir that happened in July went. Is there anyone on here from LWD who can tell us?

More broadly, and I have said this before, I think the problems with Labour are:

  1. It’s baked into many members’ identity as “the good guys”. For example in an early profile of Starmer there was an anecdote about him leaping to the support of a young trans person at a trade union meeting (no specifics provided). They aren’t just going to walk away from that, especially given that opposition to any aspect of the agenda is presented as transphobia of the most hideous kind.

  2. As Starmer’s control over the party improves, his positioning is important. He has no real understanding of the issues (eg that Labour policy on SSS and self-ID are fundamentally contradictory) and I think no passionately held view. At Iain Dale’s Ed Fringe event he was back to mischaracterising the debate as an engineered Tory wedge issue.

  3. His advisors include several young(ish) gay men who are TRA.

  4. He is now riding high and a Labour government looks more likely. The less Labour perceives itself to be fighting for a wafer thin majority the less I think it will pay attention to the votes it might lose on this.

  5. The “official” women’s socialist society, Labour Women’s Network, is completely captured. Like many socialist societies it is a very small organisation, run by a few fluffy “beeee kiiiiiiiiiind” women who are 100% on board with TRA and who do their best to stifle debate.

As to what we do - all we can do is continue making noise, if we are members join the LWN and try to wrest the conversation around (groan - I haven’t because it’s £40 a year and they are so poor on this issue), and try to use the Tories’ position to leverage change in the Labour Party. That last gets harder the more likely it becomes that the Tories will crash and burn at the next election.

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