Giorgia Meloni against surrogacy & gender ideology

[Ravensclawdropout]

She could be the first Italian Female Prime Minister; the votes are currently being counted.

She is an unwed single mother who wants women to have the freedom to be at home or work with financial support either way by having free nursery including Saturdays.

Here is a speech to give you a flavour

Meloni herself is keen to argue the party has moved away from its fascist roots.

Well then if people are who they say they are… she doesn’t identify as a fascist therefore she isn’t a fascist right? We must trust each individual to know his or her own identity, right?

Anyway I thought fascist now meant someone who believes that sex is binary and of greater significance than gender identity, therefore I suppose many of us here are fascists? You know it is the kind of thing to shout at adults holding babies if they are at women’s rights rallies.

She has kept the insignia of Mussolini, she is forging links with extreme parties across Europe, she is in coalition with populist bully-boy Matteo Salvini... just because people misuse the term fascist doesn't mean fascism doesn't exist.

I don't know any openly gay Italians living in Italy and I am Italian

I’m an immigrant in a tiny rural backwater of the Pianura Padana and know six such couples. Two of which are our close friends and the same age as us (post 50). So experiences will vary.

The Totally Fanatical church up the road went to bat for their priest when there was a gay frolicking issue. They loved him. They were prepared to overlook.

The only issue regarding homophobia that really cause any ripples was when the newsagent’s wife banned me from the newsagents’ because Britain made civil union legal. Like it was all my fault. But she’s nuts. And 99% of people in the town agreed on that matter, cos they don’t like it that’s she’s the primary school RE teacher.

My Italy bears no resemblance to your Italy. And that’s not expat-bubble-itus. I’m an immigrant, haven’t clapped eyes on another Anglosphere person since … god, my now adult son was 3 and I found an American desperately seeking Hazelnut yogurt on the supermarket in the city up the road.

The Boy who cried wolf (or fascism, or bigotry, or transphobia) is perhaps as useful a cautionary tale for these times as The Emperor’s New Clothes.

When people resort to hyperbole and attempt to change (queer?) the meaning of words, well as TRAs like to say “words have consequences”, the consequence being these words begin to lose their impact. If KJK is supposedly a Nazi and so are those who stand with her then are we going to take it seriously when we hear so and so is a Nazi? Maybe so and so is in fact a violent type who admires the horrors of the historical Nazis and would like the bring about such a state again but perhaps we will just shrug it off as that person is probably just GC and the person crying Nazi is a TRA.

It seems there are no “goodies” to side with only baddies to the left of us and baddies to the right.

Yes. Which is why it wasn’t at all helpful when people started using fascist/Nazi as the new word for “people I don’t agree with”.

Because it’s been so watered down people assume ad hom rather than still thinks Mussolini (the elder) is great.

Some (not all) local actual fascists don’t seem to pleased because they think she has watered down and will pander for the sake of power. Non fascists of all shades of politics that I know personally voted for FdI….

-to punch Salvini and Original Orange Man Bad on the nose cos of the Draghi debacle. And/or the perception of them as being pro Putin.
-Cos they’d take any fucker rather than let 5* back in again
-They aren’t on the right but they wanted to punch Grillo on the nose cos of his defence of his son against allegations of rape
-FdI came across as less “power at any cost to our principles” during the Draghi debacle
-The EU’s treatment of Italy at the start and during the pandemic turned once vocal pro-EUers in really pissed off antis and apparently FdI their best bet in that regard.

It’s not like it’s a great state secret that Italian politics and voting can be a bit … not like some other places. It’s complicated. The longer I’m here the more I feel like I’ll never read enough, learn enough to genuinely understand it.

Exactly!

This

Anti-immigration, anti-abortion, pro- fascist and the photogenic tip of an ugly iceberg.

I think it’s so funny when people start using words like ‘facist’ and ‘extreme right’ for someone whose views they don’t agree with. Like the McCarthy era in America when anyone slightly to the left was labelled a communist.

I think it’s so funny when people start using words like ‘facist’ and ‘extreme right’ for someone whose views they don’t agree with. Like the McCarthy era in America when anyone slightly to the left was labelled a communist.

Oh great! Someone who doesn’t believe in killing babies is now a pro-fascist? So funny!

I’m increasingly uncomfortable with all these notions of ‘forced teaming’ and the underlying assumptions that ideological purity is the aim that seem to come along with this logic.

It’s perfectly possible that you might find areas of some agreement in various areas with people who, in other areas, hold views you feel are abhorrent. these glimpses of
commonality can come even in totally unexpected places. And they’re the only hope of ever having any kind of productive debate.

I do think we’d be a lot better off if we could discuss actual issues - and potentially find areas of consensus where they exist in relation to specific issues - rather than rushing to categorise and box everything up. We should be able to think through the various nuances and stop just having to take positions and dismiss others entirely, based on the aspects of their ‘position’
we are not on board with.

Well said @SudocremOnEverything

The logo of her organisation is the original fascist symbol - the bundle of wood. Where the actual word comes from.Actual fascism. Not " I disagree with you so you are a fascist " fascism.
Make no mistake about who they are. If they wanted to distance themselves from that they would dump the logo. They haven't.

Incorrect, the party does not use the fasces which is old (2500 years old) and widespread (it's even on Lincoln's mausoleum).

The party reused the flame symbol from a leftwing party that disappeared last century. Left side is Brothers of Italy and the right side is the old Italian Social Movement (MSI).

She is a far right politician. This is a terrifying development for my Italian friends and family. Well for all of us really. Yes, you will find things you can agree with her on - she will no doubt be anti woke and gender ideology - but that doesn't make her and her party any less frightening.

@TheNoonBell , then how come I saw some footage of promotional material on a bus that had the bundle. And don't waste my time talking about it being on the Lincoln memorial. That's like saying the swastika is in Hindu iconography.

For Marina Terragni, a feminist writer, the left have ignored radical feminists for too long on issues such as gender politics and surrogacy. Now they see possible common ground with Meloni. “The left has never wanted to listen to the objections of feminists on these issues,” said Terragni. “The right is more willing.”

Well isn't that a familiar refrain, I wonder how many times it has to be said before the Left, and intellectual left wing feminists actually hear it?

So democracy is ‘terrifying’?

No, the rise of the far right in Europe is terrifying.

I think this misses the point Sudocrem was making. Which, as I understood it, is that there is not much point trying to simply suppress political views you don't like in a democracy. But that unless the population as a whole agrees with that view, what you will have by building compromises is an outcome that is fairly moderate as it will have to be acceptable to most.

The version where you see those you don't like as being able to pass on a kind of ritual uncleanliness typically means that those views gain in strength and often become more extreme, bigger political players.

This is probably more true in a place like Italy where you have lots of small parties and coalitions. (Which is something those who are very keen on replacing FPTP systems should consider.)

No more terrifying than the fact that Jeremy Corbyn and his far left could have been elected to govern Britain.

Yes. The problem is the emphasis on ideological purity pushes everyone further apart and prevents the kind of common ground that allows a moderate consensus to be built.

We don’t all agree with each other on everything. And abandoning an attempt at consensus building for a set of little, fortified encampments just pushes everyone further apart and enables the extreme positions to grow. After all, they’re not listening to anyone else or having to convince anyone.

I’m pretty sure that we could all find some common ground with anyone else. But so many people seems to be too busy pushing it away and hiding it because they don’t want to be associated with the bits they don’t like or agree with. They’d rather reject things wholesale if they find any point of disagreement than accept that there will be differences but to try to find consensus where it’s possible.

and here I am, stuck in the middle with you.....

Everything that Sudocream said. ^^

I mean, having read her Wikipedia entry (which may or may not be entirely fair), it doesn’t sound like I agree with this particular politician on many things.

But I’m sure I can find something. Even if my reasons to getting to that same position are quite different. I don’t know enough about her politics to speculate on where I might find it. But there will be something. Somewhere to start a conversation and try to build more consensus.

Surely that’s a better aim that denouncing and dismissing people such that all there can be are irreconcilable differences.

I did a course on international trade negotiations once, and this was a key message from it. You don’t ‘win’ everything in large scale, multinational negotiations. You try to find positions everyone can live with by finding points of consensus wherever you can.