"Hate Speech" on MumsNet

[AmaryllisNightAndDay]

Has anyone else noticed that when we report a post, one of the buttons to give a reason for the report is now "Hate Speech"? I have raised this on Site Stuff because I find the term really disturbing. And I'm raising it here because isn't this the term that's used by the police to harrass gender critical women?

Incidentally I never report those posts that are unfriendly (gosh the horror) towards the wrong kind of gay people, because I'm not afraid as a homosexual to point out the problems with what is being said and to argue my case. Or to let people make up their own minds about whether they think being homosexual is ok or a form of apartheid and those people should be made to 'learn to cope' with straight sex to be better citizens.

When you're afraid to let those things be discussed then there's a reason for this. And it's largely to try and prevent heresy escaping and infecting others.

This is all about hierarchies and power over others. Which was never intended, and is unjustifiable.

I agree. Racism is supposedly one of the most unforgivable hate speech crimes but the antiracists frequently insult conservative people of colour with the worst racial epithets and suffer few consequences. The gender war has seen dude bros and handmaidens attack lesbians and women with speech seething with hatred and threats of erasure - but again this speech has been acceptable as are the "anti-fascist" exhortations to punch nazis in the face. I am sorry but I believe even nazis deserve due process (the ACLU used to be about this once upon a time! Very wise American jewish activists used to fight for the right of expression of pretty deplorable people) and hate speech hysteria subverts due process.

I think sadly MN are existing in a world dictated by a gender ideology which puts woman at a disadvantage. Despite repeating experiences about transwomen, the mere mention will trigger an automatic deletion. It is sad that the fact does exist a specific type of ‘man’ exists within the transwomen category that are extremely dangerous and damaging but, if I as a woman were to talk about it, I'm silenced and shut down. It's ironic really.

It is startling that we are living in a world where mums who breastfeed babies are having to organise themselves clandestinely; wasnt it long ago that pedophiles were the ones who had to hide?

Because of the level of secrecy required to operate MfM, this website is in danger of disappearing soon. Reprinted with permission of the Mothers for Mother authors I am republishing a series of their posts as a form of archiving them for future readers who appreciate the sanity of those who believe in biological facts, over the thoughts of those who posit that nothing is more important than what they feel or believe about a made up world of their choosing.

lucyleader.substack.com/p/redefining-breastfeeding?utm_source=email

I'd place the blame on those who sleepwalk into authoritarianism and policed speech.

Bloody hell.

Underground lesbianism we've had for a few years now, it's the only way groups are able to survive being female only. Rape crisis and refuges are also starting to operate secretly under the radar. And now we've got the underground breastfeeding and hidden back rooms where women can murmur the word 'mother' out loud.

Women. We're becoming the biggest secret in the UK.

I'm ok with having Hate Speech as a category. I am hoping that MN use the reports, and how to check if they should be upheld or not, as part of ongoing training and statistics to be used internally by them to build a picture of who is using the site and what for.

I reported a post the other day for something in the title. I got a reply that it was being looked at but nothing further and i did see that they changed nothing. That is entirely up to MN but i would have appreciated a quick reply as to why (unless that post has now been zapped, i forgot to check)

If people think that a group, say TRAs, or MRAs are coming here and indulging in hate speech the best BEST BEST thing to do, surely, is to report it to MN.

Because that way it a) adds to their statistics 2) potentially zaps the post and iii) if not you can decide if you think MN is still the place for you (and then if not tell them why you're going)

It’s probably there to give the mods a chance filter between reports from mumsnetters V people who have an account here with the express intent of bogging down the admin so they throw their hands in the air, admit defeat and close off certain subjects from discussion. It will allow them to deal with normal site shenanigans at a normal rate, while skimming through the “hate” group in order to pick out the ones that are not obviously motivated by agendas.

Personally I object to the entire concept of hate speech being a thing. If “hate” is an issue then let “hate” be the issue, regardless of who it is directed at. It makes no sense to me that it is only wrong if directed at certain people. “Hate” is either “in the spirit” or not. But that’s no MNHQ’s fault. It should have been more strongly pushed back against as a social and legal concept when it reared its head at least 22 years ago.

As predicted “Hate” is thrown around with so much abandon that it is rendering the word meaningless because for some it has come to mean “those who do not accept my ideology wholesale”.

They also need a “potentially libellous” button. Because I see a lot more of that than I do hate. As a button it is also open to abuse. But like the late” one it allows for easier filtering between “agenda motivated” and reports with some foundation. All while normal site stuff can be dealt with in a timely manner.

They also need a “potentially libellous” button.

Agree with this.

you can write "potentially libellous" when you make the report though.
Am also assuming that someone from MN is scanning threads which may contain "potentially libellous" posts anyway and zapping things even without a report.

you can write "potentially libellous" when you make the report though.

You can write "hate speech" when you make the report. Giving more options would be better, if you have any at all.

scanning threads which may contain "potentially libellous" posts anyway

They could be in any thread.

well sure but since a lot of toys are going out of prams over a "hate speech" button, the same might be said of a "potentially libellous" button. And since I'm guessing 99% of MNetters don't have a legal background, how are we to know it's not just going to lead to a load more malicious reporting?

It's a case of suck it and see, i think. I must admit I'm mostly with the "don't report, but combat it with well reasoned argument" when shitpostings happen.

I think it's true most of the time that it's a platform mainly for women. I have thought sometimes though recently that some of the threads have been so dominated by surrendered wives or people for whom anything goes sexually that I'd do wonder whether it has been infiltrated by people who don't want women to set boundaries, who don't want women to leave abusive men, and who don't want women to have any kind of organised support networks.

well sure but since a lot of toys are going out of prams over a "hate speech" button, the same might be said of a "potentially libellous" button. And since I'm guessing 99% of MNetters don't have a legal background, how are we to know it's not just going to lead to a load more malicious reporting?

^It's a case of suck it and see, i think. I must admit I'm mostly with the "don't report, but combat it with well reasoned argument" when shitpostings happen.

I don't agree with buttons, but if there are going to be buttons there should be a range of options or people will just click the hate speech one for libel, personal attacks etc.

Exactly. It's in the eyes of the beholder, which is why free speech is the only answer. You shouldn't have the right to shut other's up, you always have the right not to listen.

I proposed "offensive" as a filter button over on Site Stuff though not everyone agreed.

I've not said much here because I was mostly on Site Stuff, really just wanted to flag it up here for anyone interested as the button was new to me.

Offensive to whom, though? Not being offended isn't a right.

Offensive to whom, though? Not being offended isn't a right.

Indeed. It's a very small-childish way of looking at the world: assuming that everything revolves around you and only what you like should be allowed to be seen or heard.

That reminds me of what Terry Wogan used to say, about the people who sit in front of their TVs and radios, just waiting to be offended and then complain to the BBC (or whoever).

Offensive to whom, though?

Good question, but the same applies to "hate speech". There's no real definition, it's in the eye of the beholder. It would be up to MN to filter and decide, same as it is. now. But without the quasi-legal terminology on the tickbox.

Not being offended isn't a right.

Indeed it isn't. But the police can go after you for a "non-crime hate incident". It might look as if "hate speech" means something stronger or more clear cut than "offensive" but it doesn't. It's just a weaponised version of "offensive".

I don't think it makes much difference. Trolls and gfs are just as likely to be left whether you use the Hate Speech report button or not. There seems to be a shift to MN being a place that stokes arguments and conflict rather than a place that bans trolls, gfs and sock puppets.
I've been using the Hate Speech tag when posts breach the protected characteristics so I include sex. But since there is no definition of Hate Speech provided by MN and users are in many different countries, not just the UK, they can't just 'assume' everyone who clicks Hate Speech has the same understanding of its meaning.

I don't agree with buttons, but if there are going to be buttons there should be a range of options or people will just click the hate speech one for libel, personal attacks etc.

agreed

im assuming (and i know this has probably been said and ive missed it) that the buttons are there so they can ‘work out’ how many posts are reported for certain things, but i think that either there are buttons for every eventuality or none and the recording of the issues is left to the mods

Some excellent posts on here

ive spent most of this thread doing full 180s

Hi @ArabellaScott what you said upthread is very important, about the legal basis for "hate speech" in the UK and who it includes and the fact that it doesn't include sex/misogyny. And that it's different from the Equality Act.

Please can you repeat that on Site Stuff? Because that's such an important point and MNHQ are looking at the Site Stuff thread and they may not see it here.

There will be much hitting of “potentially libellous” either as a concentrated effort organised by a cohort gathering and communicating on another site, or somebody going Rambo Reporting solo because they’ve just promoted themselves to Activist & Spokesperson for (insert flavour of choice) “Community”.

Just like there will be for a “hate speech” button.

But MN has come a long way Tech Shed wise. They can use an algorithm (she says blithely, having forgotten almost as much code as she ever learned) to raise or lower the priority of reports based on the reporter’s standing. So when an active, long term user of the site, who makes occasional reports that are usually upheld, hits a button.. that report hurtles to the top of the list of “shit we should look at ASAP”.

Whereas when a just registered poster, going around madly reporting every post they don’t like on a certain topic as hate/libel/personal attack.., their reports can idle at the bottom of the “needs a look” list.

Sort wheat from chaff kind of algorithm.

<ducks shoes thrown at head by Tech Shed>