I went to a talk about trans issues.

[FrankTheThunderbird]

Disclaimer... if I accidentally use the wrong language I apologise. I'm trying my best. And I'll be using the pronouns we were asked to use.

It was more balanced than I expected. But still biased, and all questions had to be handed in before the session and pre- vetted.

The panel was led by someone who didn't say how they identify. (If they did I didn't hear) but in the 'old days' would be a butch lesbian. There was an enby, afaik they were born female, mentioned using he/him at one point before becoming they/them. 2 TW. And a TM.

They talked about their journey to become who they are now. It was interesting. No mention from the older TW about how her then wife coped/felt other than they got divorced as a result. I felt sorry for them all, it sounds like they had some bad times (so have I so that's not exclusive to trans people, but I have empathy)

They mentioned sharing pronouns and said you should never feel you have to, but also don't do the jokey "well obviously my pronouns are..."

So far so good.

Then we had

Sex and Gender are the same thing. Feminists pretend they aren't so they can deny our existence.

Sex isn't fixed or binary because of seahorses. Not only do male seahorses carry the eggs, they also fertilise them themselves. (No idea if that's true. DS said if it is are seahorses technically clones?).
I wanted to ask why that's relevant to humans, I mean seahorses can breathe underwater and I can't so we aren't the same. But we weren't allowed.

One of the questions was from a 12 year old who thought they were trans. The answer from one of the TW was "tell your parents. If they don't believe you I can't say what i recommend as it's illegal". If that isn't a veiled recommendation to threaten self harm/suicide I don't know what is.

And some things I didn't fully understand. One of the TW kept mentioning a book, should have made a note of the title, about trans children in history, or the medicalisation of them. Or something. I couldn't work out why experimental surgery in the past,which we don't do on children any more, was therefore meant to be a sign that trans people exist. Or something.
All the books they mentioned were firmly on the side of TWAW, nothing from the 'other side' or in the middle of the road as it were.

Finally, if anyone recognises this talk and was there maybe you can clarify if I've got any of the content wrong. I don't think I have. That's certainly how I understood it. And there were people there who I overheard afterwards saying they didn't know anything until then, there were also some younger teens there. So they've learned some wrong 'facts' and may well go away believing them.

Sorry its long!

And FWIW I'm not a new poster. Just name change regularly.

Surely if sex and gender are the same, THAT would erase transgender people?

You're right. I thought that at the time (and then forgot that I'd thought that) but of course questions weren't allowed.

Mind you, one of the TW referred to herself as 'female' which I know the TRAs on here have always claimed was a biological sex term. So she clearly believed she had actually changed sex.

And this is often the issue. It all starts out so reasonably. Then how hard is is/has been.
Then things that are just plain wrong and aimed at separating children emotionally from their parents.
almost every time.

I expect this was the book they were talking about: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_of_the_Transgender_Child

this one is much better:

cambridgescholars.com/product/978-1-5275-3638-8

Just what I came to say. No such thing as sex not "matching" gender = No such thing as trans.

Sex is genetic and within our genes. Even those who are trans are still genetically the sex they were at birth. Changing bodily features and hormones does not change our DNA.

Gender is a choice, sex is not.

That's my view anyways

Where was the talk given? Who were the audience?

Sex is defined by are chromosomes. We cannot change sex. Mutilating our bodies or taking drugs will not change our sex. We are not sea horses and cannot be compared with them. People who teach this stuff need to put their head underwater for half an hour and see if they can live like a sea horse.
Having said that there are a few (very few) people in society who have genuine gender dysphoria and need help but it should not lead to myriads of ‘progressives’ jumping on a bandwagon and endangering vulnerable children. When we get over this unwise social experiment we will have to pick up the bill for what misguided medics have done to vulnerable youngsters.

@Lavendersummer I agree.

@TheClogLady thanks. I think it was that one. I'll add them both to my reading list.

@middleofthelittle and @Kellie45 I agree.

@PrettyPlatapus at a festival. The audience was a mixed bunch. Youngest I saw looked 12/13ish. Up to... 60s maybe. Some trans people. Some clergy. (They had collars on so I know they were clergy)

These types turn up at festivals like carrion to prey on the vulnerable. They never like debate as their beliefs are cultish. I mean, I’m going to declare myself a seven foot male tomorrow but when I look in the mirror I’m still me!

Male seahorses are male. They don't produce the eggs, they produce the sperm that fertilises the eggs from the female. What has it got to do with men claiming to be women?

Questions are pre vetted to stop any questions about facts and reality.

Sex is defined by are chromosomes.

Is it? In 99.992% of cases yes, but a definition should be an expression of the essential nature of something. It should always be true. There are cases of women with XY chromosomes giving birth. I'm leery of limiting the "essential nature" of sex to chromosomes. Can't we just define it by reproductive role? Whether your investment in human reproduction is 9 months or nine minutes? Whether your body is the type which produces ova or sperm? There is no reason why the fact that some men and women choose not to reproduce, or don't have the opportunity. or are not fertile, would make this invalid.

It strikes me that the conditions which give rise to your sex and the binary nature of sex itself are different issues. It just confuses things if they are conflated.

If I am wrong here, and someone can explain why, I will be genuinely grateful.

There are cases of women with XY chromosomes giving birth.

Are there?

Sex isn't fixed or binary because of seahorses.

So seahorses (& sea dragons) as already mentioned carry the eggs produced by the female in a pouch & eventually give birth to them. They are still male.

To keep to the sea life theme, groupers (type of fish) start life as females, grow to a certain size and have the ability to change sex to male. They then act as a male fish in every way.

But we are not of the underwater kingdom and our sex cannot change like a grouper's. Gender is a human construct which just screws with society and has a strong influence on how people get treated.

But humans cannot change sex like a grouper, no matter how many hormones are taken and surgeries performed. Altering physical appearances based on your perception of what that sex should look like does not convert you.

An XY person is a man @JustSpeculation so they can't give birth.

It strikes me that the conditions which give rise to your sex and the binary nature of sex itself are different issues. It just confuses things if they are conflated

Huh...can you explain what you are trying to express here.

Yes - it was basically a load of old bollocks. To be expected.

I believe it is possible, though extremely rare, for people with XY chromosomes and a certain condition to have wombs and I believe have carried children in the past. What they can’t do is produce eggs because they’re XY, so the egg has to be implanted. So even though things can get very complicated, the basics of XX being the sex that produces large gamete and XY being the sex that produces small gametes is never violated.

It seems to have happened once in the literature, as far as I can make out.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

But maybe more. The point is that even if it has happened once, even if it is almost unimaginably rare, that means it is possible. However, I am not a biologist, doctor or geneticist.

Look, this may be unacceptable thread drift, and the wrong time and place to raise this, and if it is I'll just go away. But it's been bugging me for a while.

This has nothing to do with trans people, the vast majority of whom are XX females and XY males.

The existence of people with DSDs doesn't mean that people can change sex.

It's irrelevant.

@JustSpeculation
You are correct, there is a gene mutation.

Swyer syndrome affects girls who have an XY chromosomal makeup, no ovaries, but functional female organs including the uterus, fallopian tubes and vagina. The exact incidence is unknown. One estimate placed the incidence at 1 in 80,000 births.

I am conscious not to align the term female to those who have ovaries as this excludes women with hysterectomies.
However this is an acknowledged mutation that those who have it, as far as I can read, as still hold all female genes.

They also have babies through donor eggs. So yes those with XY chromosomes can give birth, however they are still genetically female as they hold the mutated gene that is only found is female DNA.

Trans men with XY genes are still male. And cannot give birth.

It's very tiresome to have to included every single other possibility when the overriding consensus is that in healthy women, they are XX .

Certainly. I'm saying that there are two distinct issues here. One is how sex develops, which in humans involves chromosomes, and hormones and so on. The second is the simple fact that reproduction involves two distinct sexes in humans. I understand there are some fungi which have more, but we are discussing human sex here. I believe that the material reality of sex which underlies such issues as sex based rights is the second. It is the fact that we are sexually dimorphic which is the point, not how we get our sex.The way sex arises is not relevant, and seem to me to confuse the issue.

"...don't do the jokey "well obviously my pronouns are...""

This alone makes me seethe. Who the hell are they to tell anyone not to make light of what is a totalitarian mindset?