I went to a talk about trans issues.

[FrankTheThunderbird]

Disclaimer... if I accidentally use the wrong language I apologise. I'm trying my best. And I'll be using the pronouns we were asked to use.

It was more balanced than I expected. But still biased, and all questions had to be handed in before the session and pre- vetted.

The panel was led by someone who didn't say how they identify. (If they did I didn't hear) but in the 'old days' would be a butch lesbian. There was an enby, afaik they were born female, mentioned using he/him at one point before becoming they/them. 2 TW. And a TM.

They talked about their journey to become who they are now. It was interesting. No mention from the older TW about how her then wife coped/felt other than they got divorced as a result. I felt sorry for them all, it sounds like they had some bad times (so have I so that's not exclusive to trans people, but I have empathy)

They mentioned sharing pronouns and said you should never feel you have to, but also don't do the jokey "well obviously my pronouns are..."

So far so good.

Then we had

Sex and Gender are the same thing. Feminists pretend they aren't so they can deny our existence.

Sex isn't fixed or binary because of seahorses. Not only do male seahorses carry the eggs, they also fertilise them themselves. (No idea if that's true. DS said if it is are seahorses technically clones?).
I wanted to ask why that's relevant to humans, I mean seahorses can breathe underwater and I can't so we aren't the same. But we weren't allowed.

One of the questions was from a 12 year old who thought they were trans. The answer from one of the TW was "tell your parents. If they don't believe you I can't say what i recommend as it's illegal". If that isn't a veiled recommendation to threaten self harm/suicide I don't know what is.

And some things I didn't fully understand. One of the TW kept mentioning a book, should have made a note of the title, about trans children in history, or the medicalisation of them. Or something. I couldn't work out why experimental surgery in the past,which we don't do on children any more, was therefore meant to be a sign that trans people exist. Or something.
All the books they mentioned were firmly on the side of TWAW, nothing from the 'other side' or in the middle of the road as it were.

Finally, if anyone recognises this talk and was there maybe you can clarify if I've got any of the content wrong. I don't think I have. That's certainly how I understood it. And there were people there who I overheard afterwards saying they didn't know anything until then, there were also some younger teens there. So they've learned some wrong 'facts' and may well go away believing them.

Sorry its long!

The point is that even if it has happened once, even if it is almost unimaginably rare, that means it is possible. However, I am not a biologist, doctor or geneticist.

But just because this extremely unusual thing happened once, doesn't mean that changes the meaning of all the billions of times the usual thing (ie XX person gives birth) happens.

That is the fascism of gender extremist ideology. They argue that if there's one variation, all other "normal" conditions are null and void and must be changed.

@OldCrone great points, tbh I struggled to listen to it all.

“Gender stereotypes need to end and we just need to be able to exist as who we are.” – Alex Clare-Young
What makes Alex 'transmasculine' and 'non-binary' other than stereotypes?
Also affecting many young people's lives?

And there were people there who I overheard afterwards saying they didn't know anything until then, there were also some younger teens there. So they've learned some wrong 'facts' and may well go away believing them.
@FrankTheThunderbird did you find that quite difficult, knowing that there were younger teens hearing that message?

@duvet for me that was the worst thing about it. That young impressionable teens may have left believing we can change sex because of seahorses. Although having looked at the link someone posted upthread, they don't change sex either.

Steve Chalke is very TWAW, in my mind I connect him with Greenbelt but I’m not sure if he is officially or if it is just that during the period of my life that he featured in (when I was a teen) I also first heard of Greenbelt.

Anyway, when this scandal breaks the likes of Steve Chalke will not be able to deny their promotion of this harmful ideology.

Thank you. That solves the issue for me.

@FrankTheThunderbird Can I ask you please how you feel about JK Rowling?

I thought it was about gaining access to cross-sex hormones illegally, rather than suggesting suicide or self-harm.

@duvet I think she's superb. Why?

Yes, I think my mind jumped to the wrong conclusion.

(But I think that's what @JustSpeculation meant - that these phenomenally rare cases are used as a gotcha to pivot the discussion - a person will talk about xx and xy chromosomes showing the easily defined nature of sex, and speakers aim to prevent any further exploration of just how binary, important and straightforward sex is, by saying 'women with xy chromosomes have given birth!' Which is technically true in at least one case in the entire history of the world, and stops the discussion. Then we either have to go off into an incredibly detailed discussion about DVDs - as on this thread, though always v interesting- or bludgeon onwards somehow which sounds evasive. It's a blocking technique and I feel @JustSpeculation was pointing this out and suggesting that we are digging a trap for ourselves by focusing on chromosomes.

As you were.)

Because some opinions of people that go to greenbelt seem to feel quite strongly against her and think her views are awful. They cannot understand how I am for her when she is 'dreadful towards Trans.' (even though I've tried to give the other side. However It makes me wonder if they have actually looked into this!

@WaveyHair " To keep to the sea life theme "

H.P. Lovecraft meets Prof. R. Winston! :O

Ah right I see. I did get the impression from this talk, and general snippets of conversation that I heard around the site, that my views on trans issues don't match a lot of other greenbelters.
Which as a Christian I find interesting. Probably a whole different conversation though!

That is indeed what I meant. But I realised I was wrong through @TheClogLady 's explanation.

On Drag Going to Church (flaneurnotes.com)

I'm a Christian, though not of the Greenbelt attending variety, but it occurs to me that that sort may have been primed against JKR much earlier, because "witches," etc, and evil in her books, so may have assumed that her also unread opinions on women's rights were evil.

Thanks for bumping this thread, I hadn't read @TheClogLady's very clear explanation of her daughter's medical condition, and how she came to have XY chromosomes as well as XX. Such a good post. Thank you, and best wishes to you both.

Re seahorses.

the male seahorse has a brood pouch, the female seahorse deposits her eggs in the brood pouch, the male seahorse fertilises them.

they are eggs, so the male seahorse does not provide any nutrition for the developing baby seahorses, they have all the nutrition they require to develop from the eggs that their female parent has supplied.

the male seahorses role is to provide a protective environment for the developing babies until they are sufficiently developed to leave the brood pouch.

(Its a shame that the true male seahorse virtue of providing a safe and protective environment for his children until they are old enough to live independently is ignored by so many human fathers.)

interesting article.

Which is why attempts to erase words relating to womens experience and physiology need to be challenged, and re challenged, every time they rear their heads..

male seahorses do not change sex, they are just more involved in the procreation process. Groupers (type of fish)are protogynous hermaphrodites, a fancy way of saying they attain sexual maturity first as females, but switch to the male sex later in life.

sealife do not have genders - this is a human concept to organise & control society.