Trans woman’s victory in female snooker sparks fairness row (Times, 2 Sep)

[BettyFilous]

Another day, another mediocre male taking a woman’s prize in women’s sport.

A transgender snooker player’s victory in a women’s competition has triggered fresh debate about fairness in sport.

Jamie Hunter, 25, became the first transgender woman to win a women’s ranking tournament on Sunday by beating Rebecca Kenna 4-1 at the US Women’s Open in Seattle.

snip

Hunter, 25, from Wigan, Greater Manchester, responded: “If Maria is upset, it is disheartening and saddening, but I’m there to help grow [the sport] not ruin it. I want the tour to prosper. 🙄

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6c08649c-29ea-11ed-a830-74a6c8fbb722?shareToken=b718d32e7db506e5bf707834f039c760

Rebecca - congratulations on your win! Sorry to hear you were cheated out of your prize money.

Oh snooker is a good one. A game which does have physical elements that are different by sex - reach, height, hand size - but where it's much more about political choice; either TWAW and belong in the women's tour or not. Guess we'll see about this one.

For the avoidance of doubt, for me the women's tour is for women, vicious extremist that I am.

Even in a sport that's not majorly physical, males still have a physical advantage over females. What I'd imagine could make a difference in snooker in terms of physicality would be that they are on average taller, greater grip strength, larger hand span & larger 'wing span' for reach. I only ever play for fun in pubs so there's maybe more, but also note it was easier to play pre puberty when my boobs didn't threaten to unbalance me too 😂 and obviously just not having to contend with periods/pregnancy like all sports.

You'd really think all sports would now be using swimming, rugby et al as a guide and just switching back to separating the sexes. Its surely easier now than it was pre FINA.

Also that greasy hair hanging down onto the pool cue is making me queasy.

@anotherbrewplease reach, hand size - have you never watched a game of snooker?

What's the opportunity gap like in terms of men's vs. women's access to developing their skills in the activity at all levels? Would this person, as a boy, have been at an advantage over girls in that regard? (Not that it matters, it's a hard no to males in women's sport from me.)

Where was Jamie Hunter in the men's rankings I wonder? 🤔

What a ridiculous comment. Have you ever noticed your fellow humans? On average, men are taller, heavier and stronger than women. You and your boyfriend do not change this average. 🙄

@anotherbrewplease Ohhhh sorry!! With your research of two groups, with a sample size of one in each, everyone should have listened to you about relative sizes of men and women and based all sports from that! Silly us! We are clearly Bananas 🍌🍌

So why don't men and women compete together in snooker as they do in horse riding? Where there is no advantage to be gained by being male, it's great when sport is mixed sex. In this case it was a women's competition and it was won by a male. He identifies as a woman, but that's up to him, it's in his head. He is still a male.

I read the story recently of a transwoman golfer who competed in and won a men's tournament. I wish I could find the link to it! She competed with men because despite identifying as a woman, she understood that as a male bodied person she did not have the right to compete in the women's category. She had nothing but positivity and support from everyone for her win.

It must be better to be praised for your performance rather than for your win to be described as controversial.

It's not just physical differences that count, men have better spatial awareness and are calmer under presssure which are important attributes when playing pool/snooker.

In this case it was a women's competition and it was won by a male. He identifies as a woman, but that's up to him, it's in his head. He is still a male.

Which then poses the question, to paraphrase a previous poster,

"Are you all completely bananas in this tournament? How the hell does 'identifying as a woman' make you worse at snooker FFS?"

If the tournament is just a "representation" thing, intended achieve some sort of equity, then he's not helping. He's meant males won two tournaments, and females won zero. Representation fail. Again, whatever he feels like, he's not part of that underrepresented 50% of the population, and has defeated the point of it.

"Representation" does require actual real people from the target group, not just people dressed up to look like them. (Unless maybe it's all staged, like pro wrestling, in which case, sure, whatever... I think snooker's real though.)

Men definitely have advantages in snooker. It requires upper body strength to deal with a table that size, plus reach, size of hands (very important) etc. Pool is easier for women. My breasts get in the way too so that has to be accommodated.

Maybe you could pick up a cue yourself and take on the game ?

The really sad thing is that they could have transitioned and still played in the "men's" competition as there is no "men's" competition. As snooker is one of the rare sports where it is women and open.

Erm no, I don't want to. I'm good at rowing, useless at snooker.

Though just going to say 'huh?' at 'men are calmer under pressure'. Really? On the feminist board? What nonsense.

Interesting claims. Can you link to the evidence behind them please?

Interesting. So, the compromise has been made, men have budged up a bit and said 'women are welcome too'. But surprise surprise, that's not quite validating enough.

This is why the rules need to be clear. Why go to all the bother of changing men's to open and not clarify that the women's category is not open and is reserved for biological women?

We’re comparing one persons gender identity with another 50 people’s sex. It’s an odd category.

And there’s prize money involved. Women are losing out financially already and if they speak out they could lose out even more.

Yes, this person was better at snooker than the women in the competition. That’s pretty much why there’s a woman’s competition, isn’t it? Has a woman every won the open? Or got close? So for some reason, MEN are better at snooker than women, which is why we have a separate competition. Who is arguing that men aren’t better?

The 'men's' category is open isn't it? So why isn't the TW playing in that? Women have competed in it before but not got particularly far, as far as I recall.

Doesn’t chess have womens and open categories, too? We may not understand all the differences between sexes, be they physical or cultural, but we can certainly observe their effects. It’s possible to simultaneously work to reduce the gap whilst offering women a chance to compete separately. At the point at which women are achieving any consistent level (doesn’t have to be equal) of success, by all means, we can get rid of their protected category, but without that protected category, surely the gap will only widen?

As snooker is one of the rare sports where it is women and open.

There's quite a few of them, but the openness is generally theoretical, because women can't realistically compete with men, at least at high level.

Here women can, and the male advantage - if there is one - is small enough that women do get towards the top occasionally.

I always feel that's a weak point of the "open and women's" suggestion - it kind of relies on the "open" being just to cover "men and transwomen", and not really affecting women, because of large sex differences mean that women couldn't really compete in open anyway, so always choose the women's.

But if you do have close male/female performance, then what should women do? Try to compete in the tougher open, or settle for the easier women's? Attempt both, if permitted? Is the "women's" devalued by being the "lower division" for women choosing to not compete open? Could you justify equal prize money in that situation, Wimbledon style? And, ultimately, what's the "women's" even for? And how do you even justify keeping transwomen out, if there's not a significant physical difference?

Just kind of feels like it poses a lot of new questions that are avoided by sticking to just straightforward male/female separation, or mixed.

Even if there isn't hard evidence that physical differences explain the difference between men and women's performance in snooker, Jamie benefitted from all the advantages of growing up male and being treated as male, feeling at home in a snooker hall, not facing discrimination. If the women's snooker competition was set up for people who hadn't had those opportunities to improve in snooker over their lifetime, then that's the reason why Jamie should not be in that competition.

A lot of discussions on the advantages (physical and societal) men have in snooker here:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4538784-snooker?page=1

To my mind, there are women's competitions for a reason, and none of those reasons are relevant to TW playing in them.