M&S Changing Rooms

[Foxglove22]

It seems from these threads that M&S have decided that people can 'choose' which changing rooms they wish to use at their stores whilst not actually clearly marking them as mixed sex:

mobile.twitter.com/OnjaliRauf/status/1562365191458902016

mobile.twitter.com/marksandspencer/status/1562385003866075139

While I wouldn’t want a bra fitted by a man (and have never come across this but would decline), if the stalls are fitted all the way to the floor and no way of looking under, is that still an issue?

i don’t think I would have any issues with this providing they are private?

If they are private stalls, there shouldn't be a problem for all males to use the male changing rooms, and keep away from the womens.

Have you read the full thread?

Oh god that's what was going on - I haven't been in the changing room for ages but I took my daughter to buy her first 'ladies undergarments' today and she really didn't want to but I was saying how nice and relaxed the changing rooms are, just women, and when we got there, undergarments in arms, embarrassment turned up to 11, three teenage boys came out of the first available cubicle. We had to move aside as they boy-walked through us, one at least said thanks, but my daughter was mortified and there were drinks cans left in the changing room. Not at all the nice first undergarment experience I was going for... Why were they in the bra changing rooms, they were buying jeans from a different department????

@ErrolTheDragon yeah I’ve read this thread talking about mixed sex changing rooms and one issue around the cleanliness etc. But these won’t be the norm or happen very often. We will always hear about bad experiences 10 times over good experiences. I haven’t had any issues with mix sex changing rooms so wondering if im missing something?

Can you explain what the issue is with mix sex changing rooms? Or is that not the issue and it’s something else?

Because they are effectively mixed sex now and entitled males have carte blanche to step all over women's needs by just saying 'I'm trans' or by an aggressive ideology which stops people even asking what they're doing in the ladies. GI is a crock of shit because these places always were sex segregated and never were gender segregated. But some men need us all to pretend we 'identify as women' so they can pretend they are just like us. It's threatening for them when we say woman is a biological statement only. Sorry your daughter's needs were stomped on like this.

It's been explained here. What are you confused about?

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee ahhh I have stumbled into the wrong side of mumsnet….

Perhaps. This is usually the side that wants to break down stereotypes and open up the boxes of identity so people can just be themselves. This is not usually the GI side.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee I have no idea what GI means?

I’m a female who works in STEM inspiring young girls to get into STEM subjects, I’m all up for breaking stereotypes.

However I very much doubt the owners of large business have sat around wondering how they can annoy women and more around how they can save money. 1 changing room; less staff to run it and saves them money.

Gender Ideology. It's the idea that a) everyone has a 'gender identity' and b) this is what matters, not biological sex. It's the basis for the proposal that transwoman are women and often also goes hand in hand with the idea that you can change sex.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee thank you for explaining. I’m somewhere inbetween, I believe we only have two sexes which we are assigned at birth but I’m also quite pro trans rights (actually everyone’s has equal rights etc). But I’m probably detailing this thread….sorry OP!

* However I very much doubt the owners of large business have sat around wondering how they can annoy women and more around how they can save money. 1 changing room; less staff to run it and saves them money.

No, it's not that there's only one changing room as they mention a 'choice'. But if your choice is single sex then tough.
Of course, you're right they've not 'sat around wondering how they can annoy women' ... they appear not to have thought about the needs of women at all.

If you believe 'everyone has equal rights', do you think women from cultures which specifically require single sex facilities have a right to them?

Yeah well let's wait to see what Maureen and Jean think of that next time they use the changing rooms and a man walks in.

We are going to get to the point where men are cavity searching women who are arrested for possession of drugs. Can you imagine a trans woman cop doing that.

No, it's not that there's only one changing room as they mention a 'choice'. But if your choice is single sex then tough.

Yes exactly, most M&S's with clothing are pretty big, ours has several changing rooms, they can't even leave the bra ones as single sex? They are self obliterating, my daughter isn't a new M&S underwear convert now. It was all a bit grim, the 'nice ladies' were nowhere to be seen either.

The issues for me with what M&S and other retailers are doing are:

A) male and female changing rooms are not policed and never have been but societal norms mean that if there is a womens facility then men feel awkward using it and women feel comfortable identifying and telling on any predatory men who abuse the facility. By breaking those norms women will not be able to call out the predatory males, the ones who put phone under the stall to take photos, or make perverted comments to girls in the space, or wank in the stalls with the door slightly open.

B) it starts with changing rooms and toilets, the 'low hanging fruit' but once Female spaces there have been abolished the argument moves to more sensitive spaces. Do we really think it's ok for male bodied people to be in womens rape crisis therapy groups or womens domestic violence refuges or locked in a cell with a biological female in prison or sharing a room with a biological female in a psychiatric facility?

C) it's a cheap fob off with no effort to make it safe. These retailers are opening up the changing rooms without making any changes to mitigate the additional risk. They aren't putting in solid doors with locks, they still have the curtains. Being 100% honest how many times have you walked into a fitting room and been able to see a woman half dressed through the edge of the curtain? I know I have, now being 100% honest, when you are trying on a bra in M&S, mostly naked, do you want Random Harry (who may or may not be about to have a wank in the stall next door while fondling a pair of Jade green lacy brazilian knickers) to see you? And you only have to have a look at the knicker reviews on the M&S website to know that there's more than 1 or 2 Random Harry's out there!

If I recall correctly, the individual concerned posted on a thread about their role fitting women's bras with M & S. And yes, it was a central London branch where numerous Muslim women shop. Fortunately, I suspect few of them would undress for an unknown woman to fit a bra for them, let alone a man who self identifies as a woman.

There was a post on Twitter that a M&S in Surrey has swapped the menswear and womenswear so mens changing room is on the same floor as the women's underwear and the children's, and the general womenswear on the floor below.

It's hard to believe it wasn't done deliberately by a man who thought he'd help his friends.

H&M and Primark have had unisex changing rooms since day 1 because they're cheaper to operate (I remember them being unisex 20years ago!). M&S is a fairly new thing which displays a shift in ideology.

I have been filmed by a man in M&S changing room in Halifax. I was breastfeeding. Apparently the man had dementia and couldn't be left outside by his wife. Everyone got really nasty with me when I complained and I've not been in an M&S since.

What a grim thought.

I no longer use M&S at all due to this changing rooms issue. How it can be seen as inclusive when swathes of women and minorities are excluded by the policy is beyond me. I even buy school uniform at Sainsburys instead now. I used to spend at least £1K per year on clothing for us all.

I'm amazed your M&S changing rooms were divided in the first place. Each floor of ours has just one changing room beside the till. The curtain opens out to the shop floor.

I also believe in trans rights. But no one had rights to positive discrimination aimed at an oppressed group of which you are not part. And makes, however they identify, do not have rights to be in female changing rooms. The gender critical position is not anti trans rights despite what the TRA propaganda machine says. I personally find assigned qt birth highly offensive. The medics and nurses who support labouring women identify genitals. They do not assign anything. To suggest they do is a nasty thing to say about them but also as someone raised by a feminist I can say that it assumed a level of cultural homogeny which does not exist.