Tavistock clinic to be sued by 1000 families

[WarriorN]

Times article I've just seen...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

I'm afraid I don't have access but the headline alone...

I'm assuming it's for overly enthusiastic affirmative care and not the opposite?

once puberty blockers are stopped, puberty starts at the same positon it was when the injections were started.

No, this is misleading. Firstly, it would seem only a minority of those treated with puberty blockers stop taking them before the end of treatment is reached. Secondly, for some there will be a resumption of puberty leading to an outcome that appears to look the same as puberty having been allowed to run its course but there will be some, possibly the majority, for whom this won't be the case.

I get part of what you're doing on this thread hewouldwouldnthe about getting people to understand the level of proof required to win a claim of medical negligence, but some of your statements contain assumptions that appear to be so deliberately misleading that many here think you're playing some kind of game.

Yes. And it just happened to coincide with the term asexual becoming yet another gender identity.

Remember that asexual seems to have changed meaning and now is an umbrella term which includes people who are promiscuous. In other words, it's now an identity that someone can choose to identify in to. (It does seem to be a popular identity for teenaged girls going through puberty who are in the process of understanding their own sexuality.)

Rather a lot of minimising of serious medical interventions on this thread, in order to justify the existence of adult transwomen who transitioned when bone, brain and sexual development was complete.

My hysterical little list? Quick whip my wandering womb out!

Which of these things are not true? Why do you think they don't matter and are simply 'hysteria'? What give's you the right to take that decision away from a child? To take away their option to consider alternatives?

No one here seems to understand the basic tenets of medical negligence. The 3 tests must be applied and all must be proven. I have been involved in a medical negligence case for 8 years. I think that gives me a slightly more informed insight than most people. I know how the defence will look for every loophole and every nuance of the case to disprove the action.

I am not saying the action will fail because I don't know all the facts of the case. Neither does anyone here. I am simply pointing out where the defence will probe for weaknesses in the case (reversibility of PB, informed consent, provable harm etc) and I question whether the case will be worth adding to the emotional trauma these patients have already suffered.

Defendants in a medical negligence case will use the best lawyers available, the best experts and so on. Winning a case in the UK is far harder than in the USA.

Not least is the fact that you can't use evidence based on research now. The research available at the time of the alleged offences will be the only valid evidence, and if doctors in other countries and clinics were doing the same things then that is the evidence they use, not what a doctor would do now. You cannot apply research based evidence retrospectively.

It has to be proven that the doctors involved acted recklessly, did not inform the patients and their parents of the risks, the unproven nature of the treatment, side effects etc, and ultimately that the treatment caused permanent harm. That's a big shopping list of proofs and the NHS will fight it as they always do.

Personally I think the gender dysmorphia is the modern day anorexia. Little understood and poorly treated at the time). I don't know whether ideology played a part, or an unquestioning eagerness to help children who thought they were trapped in the wrong body. If the tide is turning then that is enough. If provable harm has been done, they should be compensated. I think the interesting thing will be to read the case papers when the time comes.

The research available at the time of the alleged offences will be the only valid evidence

So in 2017 there were at least 10,000 adverse event reports. How can I as a non medical ex civil engineer never having studied medicine know about this and yet medics at GIDS didn't?

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

@hewouldwouldnthe

Ah you’re back,mama still completely ignoring those who’ve picked you up on your lies. Is that how it’s going to be, you assert, lie, and then don’t engage when corrected?

No one here seems to understand the basic tenets of medical negligence.

You're mistaken.

This board plausibly has many visitors who have chosen not to engage with you, or to engage with issues you raise in narrow terms, but it would be quite the extrapolation to claim that, "No one here seems to understand the basic tenets of medical negligence" based on your experience to date.

Frankly I've got better things to do that argue with people who have no understanding of things medical (I do) and things re medical negligence (I also do).

And yet you have posted absolute rot about puberty blockers, utter bollocks about the current NHS guidance, and outright lies on a couple of other points.

Ykur claims to have any expertise are pretty well disproven by your posts and your unwillingness to respond to correction.

So no, you are yet another deluded person trying to gaslight women about the treatment that they are receiving.

What are you pretending to be this week by the way, a barrister specialising in medical negligence claims?

Hmmm..... your performance on this thread would suggest your understanding of things medical is not as great as you self identify it to be.........

I agree. I think it should be the children not the family suing and if they sue the NHS they should also have to sue the parents who took them for the treatment and agreed to it.

Sickening that people push for something, complain about it being to slow and then sue because they got what they asked for and we pay for it all.

They did know hewouldwouldnthe!!

The whistle blowing has been going on for years. One of the most senior doctors, and staff governor, who had worked there for over 10 years was the chief whistleblower!!

This was back in 2017/18 when he wrote his first report. And he was told to shut up. Despite at least 10 clinicians coming to him saying they were worried about what they were doing to children.

Their own head of safeguarding was censored and ignored, deliberately, because they knew. She took them to court, and won.

Why on earth do you think the government has shut the place down? They put in one of our top paediatricians to investigate this clinic. She did, and has shut the place down. And she's only released her interim results! We don't even know the full, horrifying story yet.

Whatever you might know about medical negligence, you don't know anything about this issue.

And these boards are stuffed to the gills with professional women. Barristers, judges, surgeons, employment lawyers, discrimination experts, etc.

Mumsnet is the biggest gathering of women in history. Why on earth would you think otherwise?

Puberty starts at the same position
^^
In a now shortened developmental window. Early onset puberty being a rare exception. You cannot get that developmental time back even if you pump a child with human growth hormone, it simply won't exactly replicate natural puberty.

I think clinicians wanted to delay (key word is delay) puberty to give the child some thinking and maturing time

Tell me how can the brain mature sufficiently to make a decision that will affect a child the rest of his/her life, when the process that aids brain maturity has been paused? It's all but ensuring a child will go straight onto the next step of cross sex hormones, but even if they do change their minds, after having been in developmental stasis for a significant time they likely face underdevelopment of sexual characteristics/ organs and maybe are setting themselves up for less obvious problems with depression, lack of critical thinking skills, and further down the line even things like thyroid or other endocrine problems.

And now Slater & Gordon have set out their stall…

“How can Slater and Gordon help

If you or a loved one have been affected by the issues emerging from the Tavistock Centre, our specialist legal experts are here to help. To speak to us today in a free, confidential consultation, and talk through any concerns or questions you might have, call us today”

www.slatergordon.co.uk/newsroom/tavistock-clinic-the-story-so-far/

There is a strong need for something like a Truth and Reconciliation exercise to understand how this ever happened but I doubt any of the organisations would cooperate

agreed 10000% this has to be learnt from. It’s a safeguarding question and about public and private sector professional responses to lobbying before we can be confident it won’t happen again.

So while its an amazing landmark and that goes whether they get 5, 50 or 5000 families to join in, I’m delighted to see it- we still need to keep up the GC flow of information and encouragement on politicians in all parties. The changes to practice and safeguarding are still needed now- not waiting for a legal case that could run for years. Cultural change and recognition of detransitioned people’s experiences and learning from that needs to happen now. Legal cases will be handled by specialists in medical negligence, subject to all the restrictions of that area of law, because they’re not fighting the case on GC issues. But this potential case coming is a great relief as it will send a very high profile message.

Outside of the scope of medical negligence cases there needs to be some way to tie all this in to the self-interested charities who have really pushed these ideas. Tavistock whistleblowers said that they were coaching the kids online on what to say in consultation with their doctors or sometimes were even physically present in waiting rooms at the service. That’s completely coercive of children and is totally unacceptable practice too.

I mean ‘they’, meaning the charities pushing the idea of the ‘trans child’ who were doing the online coaching and the hanging about in waiting rooms. The whistleblowers rightly observed how unacceptable all this is.

"Lawyers expect about 1,000 families to join a medical negligence lawsuit alleging vulnerable children"

Where did the 1,000 figure come from more precisely? I'm rather sceptical about this.

I think something like a TRC might be considered after due process. Because we need to know if procedures were followed, if so then how do they need to change? If not then why not? We need natural justice first, and anything else way after. Otherwise people will be able to slide out of responsibility and if children were avoidably harmed they will never get the justice they - and we as society - deserve.

I’d like to see Mermaids, for a start, held to account for all the harm they’ve done to children. Both in court and in the media.

Mermaids, who have done so much harm already , are also taking LGB Alliance to court to have their charitable status removed. The sheer nerve of them! LGBA still need more donations urgently so please help if you possibly can.

And heaven forfend any of those kids should speak up about how they regret what happened to them.

I agree. There are no trans kids. Trans is an adult thing. There are kids with gender dysphoria but luckily we know what to do with them (i.e. wait it out, talk therapy, support for mental health, trauma etc)

I wondered if my comment would be deleted. Someone’s obviously taken it personally.