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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just when I thought Academia couldn't sink any lower.

337 replies

Imnobody4 · 08/08/2022 16:40

Not just a PhD in wanking, but a peer-reviewed paper on masturbating to images of young boys. Published in "Qualitative Methods". t.co/L3MnSkYQFN

twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1556584749447143425?t=v_5NNIZDXKNzFbMBZxWsfQ&s=19

How did this get past Manchester University's ethics process @OfficialUoM ? Masturbating to images of children and writing it up for public consumption does not seem ethical to me. This is hugely disturbing.

Actually I'm speechless.

OP posts:
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Faffertea · 10/08/2022 17:21

This is abhorrent.

I don’t for one minute think that humanities should be defunded but I do wonder how much of this POMO, queer theory stuff has in part been fed by the push to increase the number of young people going to University and Universities themselves becoming more commercialised. Is there a link between this and less academic rigour?

I don’t mean this in an elitist fashion and say this as state school educated, working class parents and the first woman in my family to go to university (my older brother was the first to go at all) but I do think university should be about in depth research and learning, widening understanding rather than just this navel gazing bilge.

MaryBlighthouse · 10/08/2022 18:03

What a shocking state of affairs where masturbating to images of minors is published in an academic journal, and other academics are scared of going on record for speaking out against it.

We learn nothing from previous scandals.

AuntMunca · 10/08/2022 18:21

There's an item on this by the Spectator's gossip columnist this evening:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/manchester-probe-academic-over-self-love-text

SudocremOnEverything · 10/08/2022 18:36

The last time I had to sit through ethics reviewer training in my final
academic post, the main focus was on how ethical review was a vital means of protecting the university from reputational damage.

Now, that is not necessarily a desirable distortion of research ethics, but it feels like a hurdle that should most definitely stop research involving masterbating to problematic drawn images of boys. There is absolutely no way that one passes a basic ‘what would a journalist make of this?’ test.

My guess is that the main outcome of Manchester’s review here is going to be a more robust ethics process and more mandatory training for everyone.

Sadly none of it will properly address the issues around the need for ‘academic freedom’ to be moderated by awareness of the societal damage that knowledge production can do.

Torunette · 10/08/2022 23:08

Faffertea · 10/08/2022 17:21

This is abhorrent.

I don’t for one minute think that humanities should be defunded but I do wonder how much of this POMO, queer theory stuff has in part been fed by the push to increase the number of young people going to University and Universities themselves becoming more commercialised. Is there a link between this and less academic rigour?

I don’t mean this in an elitist fashion and say this as state school educated, working class parents and the first woman in my family to go to university (my older brother was the first to go at all) but I do think university should be about in depth research and learning, widening understanding rather than just this navel gazing bilge.

My thinking is the rot started with the government focus on universities generating research and linking that specifically to funding. Now that started sometime in the mid 90s and changed the humanities and social sciences significantly.

It meant that academics who deeply understood their subjects and taught them well, and tended to write the textbooks for undergrads, but who didn't research and didn't hold PhDs, were managed out in favour of those who did research, who, as a rule, didn't really want to teach undergrads.

So, from this, you have two problems. As the generation of research meant funding and department status, and there was such a focus on "world leading research", it led to this academic culture of obsessively pursuing research "niches" that became more and more specialist, and no one wanted to question it too much if it gave the department REF points (I can't remember what it was before the REF).

Alongside this, you end up with departments where no one really wants to teach undergrads in the basics, so it creates an unstable foundation for the next generation of academics.

I've read a couple of arguments around this aspect recently, particularly over "decolonising the curriculum" where the argument was that it's very difficult for someone to explore the phenomenon of, and debate around, decolonising the curriculum if they have never been exposed to the original "colonial" curriculum in the first place, and that's the possible danger facing today's undergrads.

I have some sympathy with this argument as it's very difficult to map cultural artifacts or phenomena within a conceptual landscape if you a) don't have any points of reference, or b) never formed the terrain of a landscape in the first place.

And I think this is what has kinda happened with queer theory and post modernism. Post modernism makes total sense to me because I comprehend it as a concept on a spatial and temporal map where it was, to some extent, an understandable development from what had gone before, and from that, I can see why and how we are now culturally "glitching" in the West many ways.

My quiet view would be that postmodernism was expressive of a kind of collective nervous breakdown after the upheavals of the 20th century, which resulted in perceiving the self and reality as being entirely exploded and its representation shattered or even erased, and queer theory is a child of that which has accepted this reading and believes that, as the self and reality is experienced as shattered or erased, any solidity, parameters, and boundaries are therefore illusory. There simply can be no metanarratives at all, even those that define the differences between youth and age, illness and health, and male and female.

MsRosley · 10/08/2022 23:11

Fladdermus · 08/08/2022 20:14

DH (academic) says this is career ending. What he thinks has happened is that the university have taken him on as a PhD candidate but he hasn't had any funding for his 'research'. He's either lied about what he's doing or he's had no supervision. DH expects his PhD supervisor and the supervisor's boss to be in deep shit over this. The bloke himself will either be sacked, or if for some reason he can't be it'll only be a matter of time before they 'manage' him out. His career is over.

There is no way the university or ethics approved this.

The journal that published this will also be in the shit. This won't have gone to peer review as peers would have rejected it on ethical grounds. The editor has most likely approved this directly. This happens with smaller journals who don't always use peer review. The publishing house will go nuts once they find out. When similar things have happened in the past (although he says this is worse) the editor of the journal and sometimes the board have all been sacked.

Heads will roll once the right people know, and if they don't already know, they will soon. DH is currently writing to his contacts at Manchester university and the publishing house to make sure they know as he's absolutely furious. He's also reporting it to the police.

Can I just say I bloody love you DH, @Fladdermus !

MangyInseam · 11/08/2022 03:00

blahblahblahspoons · 10/08/2022 15:09

But that seems to be a significant issue throughout the humanities, in my own discipline so much of the output seems to be these weird, niche, and almost made-up kinds of questions. And they are very often linked in some way to whatever is on trend at the moment, usually something to do with sex, gender, race, or "representation"

I can't help but think there is a link between so much triviality and the very unsavoury nature of this paper

Why do you think it's tolerated @MangyInseam is it a case of the Emporer's New Clothes of queer theory gaining precedence and everyone being scared of being cancelled if they call it out even if the research is horrendously trivial? And presumably all the trivial research on identity is stopping more useful research being done?

I have several academic friends and one of the scientists is incredibly scathing about a lot of humanities research. I used to think it was him being a bit snobbish but now I think he's probably on to something. He works on actual life saving medical research so I can kind of see why he might not be that happy when money is wasted on very trivial and poor research which is all about what people reckon and not much more than that.

TBH I think that part of the problem is the expectation that they all produce new articles that involve "innovative" research on a regular basis. The fact is that when you are talking about Aristotle or Thomas Aquinas, there is so much written that coming up with something new and substantial is difficult. And maybe that shouldn't really be the point, anyway.

NitroNine · 11/08/2022 04:22

Perhaps unsurprisingly, in the DM comments, an objection was raised to women having the temerity to discuss something not immediately obviously & directly connected to child-rearing.

colin2564
what the hell has it got to do with mumsnet anyway? yes it is a very strange paper he was researching, but it was research and doing nothing illegal, the prim and proper mumsnet should be more outraged at the woke teachers and heads, teaching their kids things they should not get involved in!!!!

I trust everyone is feeling suitably chastened now a man has supplied his manly opinion on things. Presumably Colin is a Professor/Chair of Law & intimately familiar with the relevant area[s] of legislation; ethics committees; academic research & publication; & supervision of PhD students etc in a way few on MN would be. Because surely nobody would make blustering baseless assertions about how his methodical masturbation was totally fine & in no way illegal? Not when the reverse being true at best makes you sound like a clueless idiot & at worst makes it sound as if your hard drive might be in need of examining.

As for “prim and proper” - tell me you’ve never read MN without telling me you’ve never read MN… unless of course for Colin “prim and proper” is a synonym for “not porn-addled”. You can swear very freely here; you can discuss pretty much anything; but we’re not doing whatever the Internet forum equivalent of lingerie-clad pillow-fighting might be. The business about children, too - so endlessly tiresome. Not everyone here has children; many users that do have children will have children of an age where it is university entrance they’re most concerned with; & it’s a rare user that doesn’t work. Perhaps someone who works in Early Years could do Colin some nice flashcards to explain not all MN users are mummies (some are even men…) & that women (even if they are mummies) are allowed to have opinions, interests & jobs unrelated to children. Might need to add in we’re allowed to vote, just in case that’s a nasty shock for poor Colin too.

mrshoho · 11/08/2022 07:19

Pesky Mumsnetters always sticking their peak in to matters they neither understand nor have any business in. Poor Colin must be exasperated daily!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/08/2022 08:21

It was only one comment and it seems to have been majorly downvoted.

Poor Colin.

SudocremOnEverything · 11/08/2022 09:39

@MangyInseam I would certainly agree that the pressure to regularly publish something is a very bad thing. There has been exponential growth in the amount of material published, and very little if it is worth sharing. It’s so often saying something because you need to be seen to be doing so, not because you have anything important or valuable to add to anything.

You can see it in the style and format used in some social science disciplines: intro (focused entirely on the discipline), 3 sections of regurgitating whatever theory is fashionable, 1 very short section about whatever the title purported to be about (generally vague and more in service of the theory than anything else), conclusion (return to pointless whittering about the discipline). And repeat.

SuperCamp · 11/08/2022 10:54

I wish someone would do a PhD on the relationship between Manga (and related styles) and paedophilia.

My Dc were heavily into Manga art, and I was impressed with the amount of child friendly opportunities for them to take part in workshops, conventions, online clubs etc, led by adults.

Thankfully they just concentrated on their various art books.

Now when I see that every so-called MAP / No-MAP account on Twitter has a Manga style avatar, (DMs open… age of attraction advertised), and read stuff like the material discussed here, it would be interesting to see factual research undertaken.

FannyCann · 11/08/2022 12:06

There's a short article in the Telegraph about it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/10/manchester-university-taken-task-publishing-phd-masturbation/

Sorry, the Telegraph doesn't do share tokens, but this bit caught my eye Hmm

"I happened to live alone during this experiment, and I had newly become single after a long relationship - these factors probably contributed to my willingness and eagerness to explore this method.”

KittenKong · 11/08/2022 12:13

You dont want to go into one of those comic books stores then!

I went with DS recently and the amount of special sections was quite gobsmacking. An awful lot of LGBetc sections and some which seemed to specialise in ‘sexy schoolgirls’ or ‘sexy teen girls’. Needless to say the clientele was mostly male or girls with blue hair.

I’d never seen so many boobs outside the ‘top shelf’. Just because they are cartoon girls or weird cat/fox/ghost/other animal things, doesn’t make it less creepy.

I found old Dr Who books so I was happy…

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:06

Academic twitter, from a STEM perspective, has been full of people baffled as to how something both illegal & methodologically bullshit has been published.

Good write up here:

stuartritchie.substack.com/p/circling-the-wagons

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:08

A lot of academics condemed the paper without naming it or the author, which was good in terms of not increasing it's publicity and downloads, but definitely contributed to the impression no one was talking about it.

I'm glad it's reached major news outlets now & there have been statements from the journal and university.

EmmaH2022 · 11/08/2022 14:13

Could someone please link the statement from the uni please? I can't seem to find anything.

EmmaH2022 · 11/08/2022 14:28

Oh I found it

his social media is all still there, he's not even protected it. Nothing will happen to him.

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:31

EmmaH2022 · 11/08/2022 14:13

Could someone please link the statement from the uni please? I can't seem to find anything.

"The recent publication in Qualitative Research of the work of a student, now registered for a PhD, has raised significant concerns and complaints which we are taking very seriously.We are currently undertaking a detailed investigation into all aspects of their work, the processes around it and other questions raised. It is very important that we look at the issues in-depth. While that investigation is ongoing, it would not be appropriate for us to comment further at this time."

www.spectator.co.uk/article/manchester-probe-academic-over-self-love-text

To be fair it isn't clear if this work was actually done whilst he was a student at Manchester.

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:33

EmmaH2022 · 11/08/2022 14:28

Oh I found it

his social media is all still there, he's not even protected it. Nothing will happen to him.

Why do you say that?

I'm pretty sure the University will deregister him - they definitely would at my institute. Not that it should be a factor, but he's just a PhD student, not a tenured member of staff.

EmmaH2022 · 11/08/2022 14:42

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:33

Why do you say that?

I'm pretty sure the University will deregister him - they definitely would at my institute. Not that it should be a factor, but he's just a PhD student, not a tenured member of staff.

Trying to be careful what I say

look who has had a police visit recently ...certain people whose feelings can't be hurt.

look at what he got away with before. Look at anime type stuff generally. (Or don't, would be my advice).

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:46

@EmmaH2022

I totally agree & I'm not trying to minimise the fact that people do get away with things, especially those in positions of power.

But this is a student who has admitted (indeed- provided a full written confession) to illegal activities whilst at university. It isn't something that can be brushed under the rug and Manchester won't need to tiptoe around expelling him.

Whether he benefits from the infamy in other ways remains to be seen though.

SudocremOnEverything · 11/08/2022 15:00

1blossomtree · 11/08/2022 14:31

"The recent publication in Qualitative Research of the work of a student, now registered for a PhD, has raised significant concerns and complaints which we are taking very seriously.We are currently undertaking a detailed investigation into all aspects of their work, the processes around it and other questions raised. It is very important that we look at the issues in-depth. While that investigation is ongoing, it would not be appropriate for us to comment further at this time."

www.spectator.co.uk/article/manchester-probe-academic-over-self-love-text

To be fair it isn't clear if this work was actually done whilst he was a student at Manchester.

It is likely the work is from his previous studies. However, the paper is very clearly linked with them because he is currently a PhD student there and his author biography makes this clear. He’s been a registered student at Manchester for just under a year.

Just when I thought Academia couldn't sink any lower.