Drag Queens and Libraries Radio 4 discussion

[BoreOfWhabylon]

12:04 today
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019rrf

Antisocial, with Adam Fleming
Drag queens and libraries
AntiSocial

The row over drag queens reading stories to children.

A spate of protests outside libraries has focused attention on the idea of drag queen story hours - drag queens reading stories to young children in libraries and other public spaces. For some, it’s the perfect way to build acceptance of LGBTQ+ identities, plus it’s fun and fabulous for the children. For others, it risks exposing young minds to adult entertainment and complex themes of sex and gender.

Hmm... I'll be interested to see how this goes

Excellent analogy. That blend of embarrassment, anxiety and nervous discomfort.

One of the things that has struck me about DQST is that there is a very odd contradiction.

It's something I've noticed because here in Canada, there have been a number of other controversies related to gender issues and libraries.

Both the Vancouver and Toronto libraries were challenged for allowing Meghan Murphy to book space in the library in order to hold a meeting for women discussing gender politics. TRAs were very upset and applied pressure that they be refused access, in both cases the head libraries ultimatly stood up to them and said that as long as the activity was legal and within the guidlines (not for profit for example) anyone could use those spaces.

Then in Halifax the Pride group there protested that they had Abigale Shrier's book, and in the end they boycotted the library and didn't allow them to be involved in the Pride festival, which they had been prominently involved in for some years.

What is very odd to me is that on the one hand, these organizations do not want the library being open to books of varying viewpoints, and community groups with varying viewpoints booking spaces - both exactly the kinds of things a politically neutral library should be doing. And libraries have been pretty good overall at recognizing this element of their role and standing up to TRAs (though lots of their employees have not, sadly.)

But with DQST we see the library itself being asked to host events that are not politically neutral, and somehow they don't seem to be able to understand that is also a problem.

Tis this... From about 2 minutes. That's feminine energy.

Thanks for this - will definitely listen

First, congratulations on having libraries that stand up to TRA pile-ons! That is good to hear.

But yes, it does seem odd that having held firm against that pressure, they’re not seeing the political agenda and safeguarding issues in the DQST movement.

it does seem odd that having held firm against that pressure, they’re not seeing the political agenda and safeguarding issues in the DQST movement.

I don't see your logic there. The DQST might be inconsistent (only free speech for politics they agree with) but as long as the direct safeguarding risks have been dealt with the library are being consistent (neither side are doing anything illegal, free speech for both sides)

Times has another article today about DQST:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5c7e02c8-15ba-11ed-b96d-f6ca9315edcb?shareToken=f1e033031bc1d440a674c4e69ce8e719

The last few days have been weird in the Times, very different reporting on this issue to their usual approach.
There is also Val McDermitt (sp?) telling us that women's fears are overblown.

I think the Times article is fair enough on this issue. Yes the performers' politics might be dodgy but on these occasions I don't think most children are direcly affected by the politics, either for good or bad. They just see a funny man in a frock dancing about.

What I would like to see explicitly in DSQST safeguarding policies is truthfulness: you wear what you like and it's part of the show but a man in a wig and frock should not tell children that he is a girl. Not even a temporary girl.

And surely it is far more liberating to tell a child that a man can wear a frock and still be a man. It is dreary as well as dishonest to say he becomes a girl.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I do get what you mean and for me this is not the focus of my own concerns, school education and vulnerable kids being pushed ideology is.

However I guess DQST is very public ‘F you’ to any parents concerned about trans ideology and kids. Particularly as it is in our public libraries, funded by public money, and is heavily pushing the ‘it’s all fun and harmless’. When it’s the tip of quite a dark iceberg particularly with the Tavistock clinic closing down and we are the middle of debating and discussing trans education in schools.

I don’t think that’s an adequate response. As I’ve said before, this is not really, in itself for me, the worst thing. The ‘immediate harm’ I guess isn’t there in my eyes. However, the argument that it’s just up to parents doesn’t really tackle why trans ideology is around kids in the first place, and that this is a very public show of how it is all fine, nothing to worry about, don’t be a bigot. It’s using public money and public libraries for a start.

As I’ve said, for me it’s less of a focus than trans education in schools. Which is being badly done and crossing all kinds of safeguarding.

But as there is so much that is a safeguarding concern for kids, the Tavistock clinic closing, the dodgy education packs in schools, then I really don’t think that now is a good time to be forcing the issue by flying the flag by storytelling in libraries. Have some respect for kids I think and back off until we have had more of a proper debate and sensible discussion about where all this ideology is impacting our kids.

He has fundraised for transgender groups advocating the use of hormone treatment for children as young as 12.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11085685/Why-councils-spending-taxpayers-cash-drag-queens-read-children-Asks-KATHRYN-KNIGHT.html

Had missed this; the fire alarm went off at the Leeds one and the staff evacuated all but the dqsh. Jfc.

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/wont-somebody-actually-think-of-the?utmmedium=email&fbclid=IwAR3e8eNxNN-3hUZ2vs--CHMR72y78PQ4PwGS2HIjrGmgR8BZw6XNGXptTw

Wow! That's some statement. Not bigoted or anything.

No, not bigoted, how I feel about this too. Instincts are important.

Someone wants to experience feminine energy, they need to stop by Mumsnet…

I did have a sinking feeling when the performer on the BBC programme burbled that Sab Samuel / Aida H Dee had ADHD and ASC and how made DQSH an even more wonderful example of diversity and inclusion. People can be very naive.

How can your instincts be bigoted?

The thing is, it could have been so different. 'Are you a girl or a boy?' ' I'm a boy but sometimes I like to put on sparkly dresses and high heels. Boys can enjoy dressing up, just as girls can play football.' They could have checked out the Drag Queens properly, had a conversation about toning down the sexual nature of this and about what is appropriate for children and made it a message about NOT being defined by gender stereotypes. However it's been completely the opposite of this because they're so scared of Stonewall they have forgotten to use their brains.

How are feelings bigoted?

Women having boundaries and instincts is 'bigoted' dontcha know.

Basically women being human beings in their own right with their own human rights and opinions is bigoted.

We're only not bigoted if we're happy to be service humans to men.

This is the logical conclusion.

I also find drag deeply creepy and also pantomime dames too. Saw a pantomime with tiny DDs a few years back and was appalled at the level of sexual innuendo from the dame, who was supremely unfunny, and have not and will not spend any money on a pantomime again. So many wonderful shows you can see which empower girls instead.

No thanks.

Teaching women and children to ignore their instincts is the first step of the predator.

I agree entirely with Climbing's excellent description. Captures the feeling perfectly.

I don’t understand why you’ve quoted me; I agree entirely with your first paragraph, and disagree with the poster upthread who intimated that instincts can be “bigoted”. Unfortunately this poster hasn’t returned to explain what they mean by this.