Drag Queens and Libraries Radio 4 discussion

[BoreOfWhabylon]

12:04 today
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019rrf

Antisocial, with Adam Fleming
Drag queens and libraries
AntiSocial

The row over drag queens reading stories to children.

A spate of protests outside libraries has focused attention on the idea of drag queen story hours - drag queens reading stories to young children in libraries and other public spaces. For some, it’s the perfect way to build acceptance of LGBTQ+ identities, plus it’s fun and fabulous for the children. For others, it risks exposing young minds to adult entertainment and complex themes of sex and gender.

Hmm... I'll be interested to see how this goes

What's this 'feminine energy' and why haven't I got any?

You and me both @Rightsraptor !

The Moneybox programme on trans was similarly male-dominated.

It was definitely unequal in terms of how much you heard from the other side compared to Jo and it was the same with Milli Hill.

no mistaking where Adam Fleming's sympathies lie.
Jo was great.

Oops Sorry MN. Forgot the no bad language rule.

IKR?

Thanks, Bore - was going to post the Feedback link but you've beaten me to it.

It's fair to say that he thought it was wrong for the protest to be done in a way that was upsetting to kids.

I'm less sympathetic to him saying that only people whose political views he empathizes with are allowed to protest things they think are wrong.

I think being a mother has sapped a lot of my feminine energy, it's very spotty these days.

I find it really fustrating that the sensible middle ground is often lost, there does seem to be a right wing push which has been reported. The drag queens at libraries seem naive, I’m sure they well meaning people, but central for me is that an ideological viewpoint is being pushed way too hard on children.

Trans ideology needs to be discussed and settled in the adult realm. For me anyway. Until that happens, until we are more clear on this issue. I think it needs to be totally taken out of the realm of children.

TRA Twitter are apoplectic that evil transphobes were given a platform. This "they are all right wing " thing will get you so far but eventually people are going to see what hyperbolic nonsense the TRAs are peddling to stop people taking a second look.

It seems on the outside, that there is a right wing push against trans. Particularly around things like drag queens story telling to children. I wonder if this will be a different kind of fight. I’m not right wing and don’t like a lot of their ideologies.

The feminist argument seems more measured, about safeguarding, using evidence, trying to be fair and rational. The right wing vs trans is a crazy thing to watch where they are throwing extreme accusations on either side! It’s like facts go out of the window. Not sure what to make of it.

From Edgehill university. Swallowed it all.

A failure of the program was that it was one woman v several men.

At the end particularly it was all about the performer and his need to express his female self etc .. not really much about relevance to children girls women or lesbians. It was interesting that the man talking about safeguarding expressing his surprise that “ you must not sexually interact with or abuse people under 18” which is normally not explicitly stated in these kinds of documents, was in the cut and paste guidelines for these performers.

I didn't hear the interview (I'll try to find it) but something keeps coming to mind about DQST. I remember Richard Bacon being sacked by Blue Peter for snorting cocaine. In fact, I remember a few presenters of various programs being removed because they did various (legal!) adult things. Anything that wasn't remotely child friendly in the papers meant brought lost your job. It still happens with teachers - they can be in trouble for a pic on facebook if it isn't fully locked down.

So how the hell has it got from there to a group of people whose entire career is based around (if I'm being polite) sexual innuendo and adult themes not only not being prevented from working with children but being invited to?!

It was interesting that the man talking about safeguarding expressing his surprise that “ you must not sexually interact with or abuse people under 18” which is normally not explicitly stated in these kinds of documents, was in the cut and paste guidelines for these performers.

Imagine being the sort of person who has to be told this.

Yes it's around how a culture of an org or attitude that an individual has (blurred boundaries as an example) can undermine safeguarding processes.

They've not endangered a child directly but culture of an org and certain personalities can mean that people aren't challenged when they should be and thus safeguarding has the potential to or does fail.

Much of this type of safeguarding came from the failures at little teds nursery, whereby Vanessa George's character was too domineering for people to query her actions. If anyone had had niggles they felt unable to query them.

Yes I agree there is a lack of understanding about safeguarding. It is about having an open and robust culture, where people cannot go unchallenged. It is not only about ‘is this individual a risk’ to children, but appropriate boundaries so that abuse cannot enter the space and children have clarity about their own boundaries.

Anything which breaks down appropriate boundaries for children, such as eagerly bringing in drag which is a form of adult entertainment and sells the trans ideology, is just not suitable for children. It is not transphobic to say this, and very worrying that this needs to be pointed out. For me it means that safeguarding is being eroded.

If I ran a library it wouldn't be my first choice of hire, and if I had a child that age it wouldn't be my first choice of holiday activity; and yes I suspect that ideologically it's a bit dodgy and I wouldn't want to look to closely; but it's not the hill I would choose to die on.

However I was not happy about the performer saying "right now I am a girl" to a confused child who came to him to ask. It is important to be plain and truthful with children who ask questions. Performers may be unwilling to "break the spell" but "I am a man and I can dress up and pretend to be a girl for storytime" is safer than "right now I am a girl". The performer needs a hard think about why he wouldn't or couldn't say that.

Was it "I am a girl whenever I dress in a frock and feel as if I am?" Or was it not wanting to break the performance? Or some mix of the two? People who can't break themselves out of a performance have poor boundaries.

Children trust adults to tell the truth (this girl trusted him to be honest or she wouldn't have asked him!) and not all children will recognise a non-literal or "stage" answer. Especially children who might have autism - and a performer has no way of knowing that a child doesn't. That girl may not feel confused any more but she may have gone away believing that it's possible for a man to become physically female when he dresses up and says so. Which is not a safe belief.

The thing is DQST doesn't hold up to reasoned debate, it would only win out if the arguer was outnumbered by people who were all for it which sounds like the case here.

I'd be fuming because it sounds like there was only one critical woman outnumbered by men. Think of all the mum's angered by this.

One of many good reasons not to pay the bloody licence fee to the BBC.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I agree there are more important areas, just focusing on Drag, I just think people don’t get it. Like with bathrooms. It’s really the sports area that many more people are able to see the unfairness to women. Trans ideology in schools is for me pretty big. However it can be hard to get people to see this, I think many parents think it’s good as it’s just encouraging tolerance in children, when it’s actually telling kids that gender identity is fact and biology is not.