I think GTA is misogynistic and I will not have it played in my house. Ex and ds disagree. Help

[ShadeSail]

Ds is 14, and has been asking for 2 years to get GTA. Obviously it is a 16 game so it's a flat no, but I've told him even when he's old enough if he living at home I won't have it played in my house.

Ds is with ex right now, and ex has installed it on ds computer there. He said he knew nothing about it, I explained that aside from ds being too young, I didn't like the element that female non-player characters can be beaten up, raped and killed by the (often male) player and I think it's misogynistic. Ex says it isn't, because male NPC can also be beaten up and killed. My view is that, given the society we live in, where violence against women and girls is rife and normalised, and violent porn is the norm, it is irrelevant that male
NPC are also there to be beaten and killed. Also I don't think there is the sexual element re. Male NPC.

I haven't played it - just read about it. So I guess it's possible I'm being reactionary?

Would welcome any more articulate explanations of what is wrong with it (or telling me why I'm wrong - if I am)

Ex is an abusive arsehole - so it's not at all surprising that he disagrees with me and I may well not be able to change his mind, but I'm more interested in how to discuss it with ds so that he gets some balance from his awful fathers attitude.

There isn't any rape in the game and it's pretty rare for any of the story missions to have you actively trying to kill a woman (I can't really recall any instances of it).
You can shoot and beat up NPCs indiscriminately, and some of those NPCs are women, but I wouldn't say it was encouraged (definitely not moreso than the men).
It's still probably not appropriate for a child, but misogyny is pretty far down the list of reasons why.

Think it's age rated at 18, not 16

You are right - it is an 18. Ex installed it without even knowing that.

Ive played GTA. It's an 18 for very good reason. Obviously it's up to you how you choose to parent, but as a PP eloquently pointed out, banning things rarely helps long term.

It's a game. Will you ban all films with violence? Books? What about music lyrics.

My personal view is that we're better equipping our children to understand that, while this is part of the cultural landscape, it's wrong because...

And I honour age ratings for the most part.

Msmarvellous - my ds is currently 14, so it's not a case of banning it until he's 18 and can actually play it.

I enjoy the game, I used to play it with my brother when we were living together as teens.

That being said, I don't think it's appropriate for those under a certain age, obviously. And you have every right to ban it from your house based on your principles. Likewise though, ex has every right to not ban it from his house.

However, if your son isn't old enough to play it yet, I guess you could get your ex in some sort of trouble regarding safeguarding and boundaries, but I really doubt simply letting a teen play an 18 game would reach any threshold. It's very common to play games or watch films that are rated higher than than the child watching.

The good news is the makers of GTA have announced that the next one will no longer “punch down”

🙄 Even GTA is going that way

I'm not interested in getting my ex in trouble or trying to dictate what he does at his house.

I wanted to hear others views on the game to enable me to discuss it with ds, and inform ex more why I hold this view. I have sent ex the article linked upthread and he can make his own choice.

People will tell you what is viewed on screen does nothing to alter a person physiologically.

If that were true, porn would not be so popular!

I also don't allow real-life style violent games. And I don't tend to watch stuff where women are casually raped and or killed for entertainment.

However, gosh I used to love GTA! Not played it for nearly 2 decades but the graphics and soundtracks were stunning. My housemates used to play it properly. I just used to zoom about the place in cars and perfect my driving skills.

Not sure what I'd say to kids on this one (too young currently). Maybe allow it with lots of discussion? It isn't just the misogyny. There's also the gang violence, which is the direct result of highly racist and ineffective US drug laws.

The good news is the makers of GTA have announced that the next one will no longer “punch down”

Faux progressives (which I suspect describes many a silicon Valley tech dude) don't consider all violence or intimidation against women as "punching down" so I wouldn't hold your horses.

*People will tell you what is viewed on screen does nothing to alter a person physiologically.

If that were true, porn would not be so popular!*

I'm honestly curious about your thought process here. Are you saying that the fact that people watch porn is proof that it "alters people psychologically", or have I misunderstood?

I was the same. I didn’t put my foot down enough often, but I did about that.

There were years of whining, but they got over it.

With all due respect, and yes, some aspects of gta, could be reprogrammed. That aside, when are we banning all action films, all dramas e.g. Csi, ncis, all soaps, etc, all in their various forms, influencing one set or another's behaviours and thought patterns, and then for those that suggest tv does not influence behaviours, they why have marketing advertising ?

Not holding any horses (that would be Red Dead surely?) as I was being a little sarcastic - it’s mostly hot air for the gaming press at this stage to see how it lands.

I think it’s fine that games like GTA exist and it’s also right that the age ratings are upheld by parents.
Personally I’d ban it from the house for the micro transaction aspect and I’d encourage any parent to learn about microtransactions and how loot boxes are linked to problem gambling disorders. Much more concerning than computer game violence in terms of influence on real life behaviour.

Yes you've misread the word "physiologically" as "psychologically". Easily done! I'm talking about how the body is affected. Over time that could also affect the mind.

Watching porn affects many/most people physiologically eg affects what their body does: They watch porn, and experience sexual arousal simply from watching.

I think it is reasonable to assume that watching other things will also have an effect on a person's body. Heart rates raised watching scary films is another really common example.

Watching violence, watching one's avatar committing violence, will probably produce some kind of body effect too. I'm curious as to what the long term effect of repeatedly viewing /controlling online screen violence is. Perhaps it is different in different people (eg whether or not you've previously witnessed, experienced or committed violence).

I do not know. But I doubt very much the effect is "nothing". Just as the effect of repeated porn use is not "nothing".

Oh in that case 100% with you. I thought you meant banning from your house full stop. If it's just until he hits the age limit that's obviously perfectly normal.

Your ex is definitely in the wrong!

Ah you're right. Sorry. I didn't see the tail end concentrating on your son.

No advice from me. My little one is still too young for this to be an issue. I'm staying on the thread to learn a thing or two!

I banned it beyond 18 too.

I never allowed tellies in the bedroom, so any gaming was done in the living room. I didn’t want some CGI pole dancer writhing in the corner of the living room, thanks.

I see where you're coming from. I don't think there is anything that doesn't affect you physiologically though, by definition.
I'm sure controlling an avatar will "do something different" compared to reading a book, but are you saying this is a negative thing?
For example, I'm sure someone who plays violent videogames all day will have better fine motor skills that someone who watches TV all day, but I'm sure how that would alter society for the worse.

I find it absolutely shocking the degree to which violence in normalised in culture, popular or otherwise.

I absolutely would take a stand with such a blatant exemplification as this. You do not have to have that going on in your own home if you don't want to.

I dunno although I agree to ban it etc just been to Rome and gone on a few tours there must be something in the human (young male?!) psyche that craves watching violence. The Romans did it for real in public in the Colleseum. You could watch a beheading in your lunch break. Seems that instinct hadn’t been bred out of us sadly!

I don't know that it was only young men who watched the brutal Roman games was it? I was under the impression that it was fun for the whole family in those days.

I think it's awful on every level but it's certainly not the case that equal opportunities criminality means that it's not misogynistic! This game is not played in a vacuum - it exists in relation to, and exploits, the power relations of the world we actually live in.

1. there are good self-preservative reasons not to assault a man - you will likely be assaulted back. Assault a woman and you will likely avoid any adverse consequences. If you believe that people's ethical universe is impacted by what they consume, as I do, the impacts of the normalisation of violence across the board in GTA will only, in real life, be felt by women - because men get away with it, already, all the time.


2. Most women are, in the real world, physically weaker than most men. Violence against women is therefore generally socially agreed (even if it's only lipservice) to be ethically 'worse' than violence between equals. To assert that these forms of violence are equally bad is in itself an act of misogyny which, by attempting to reduce the social stigma attached to violence against women, implicitly promotes it.


3. The assaults on women are sexualised because the women themselves are universally sexualised. Whether they know it or not, men are being primed to associate the idea of sexual violence with arousal, even if vicariously.


4. Women in the GTA universe are 'hoes'. The baseline is the denigration of women, even before the violence.


5. Globally, millions of women experience a version of this kind of violence every year to a degree that simply isn't true for men. It's real, it's horrific.It's human beings being tortured, beaten, killed. If you find it entertaining - even in a 'visceral' way rather than in a 'yeah let's get off on VAW' way- you're already a misogynist and you need to stop.

gah human beings being tortured, beaten etc.

I agree - thank you, very well put and articulating my own view in a way I couldn't.