Kemi Badenoch on the Tavistock GIDS

[InTheCanteen]

This is so good:

Tavistock scandal shows the dangers of civil service groupthink

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0df1a300-1022-11ed-b7aa-67f5549661eb?shareToken=a63b0046a438836d715431528446b1a3

“I insisted on meeting campaigners on both sides of the debate: not just Stonewall but, to the horror of some officials, the LGB Alliance. I met clinicians and, most importantly, I asked to meet young people who had used the Tavistock’s services.

One such young person was Keira Bell. To my surprise, I was advised strongly and repeatedly by civil servants in the department that it would be “inappropriate” to speak to her. I overruled the advice. Along with other advisers across government I met Keira and listened to what she had to say. Her testimony was harrowing and brought many on the Zoom call to tears. Keira described how, after being put on puberty blockers at the age of 16, she was given testosterone shots at 17, before her breasts were cut off at 20. Worse was the casual indifference she described from the GIDS service to her continued post-surgery wellbeing.“

And can we please disregard Angie calling people 'scum', I feel she deserves another chance

Well there is this:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4602759-to-feel-angry-at-tory-voters

That’s also not from the feminist boards!

I lived next door to a local Tory councillor for years. He was the kindest most hard working most community minded person I have ever met. Out helping people at all hours, people knocking at his door, ringing him at 8pm on Sunday nights to discuss their problem, chair of governors at local school, St. John ambulance and always at community events too. In fact most of the people that help at these things I would suspect are Tory voters.

I feel I've seen a shift on the feminist boards away from assuming everyone here is left wing, it's the only correct position, that rigt wing women are bad and women hating.

I feel the trans issue has united a variety of women from across the political spectrum and this has resulted in a culture of more acceptance and understanding of differing political views, instead of judgement.
And of course this has happened alongside the left utterly abandoning women.

Some one actually commented the other day: 'Tory women are women too.'

It really amused me that this seems to be a revelation to some people .
#Torywomenarewomen?😁

I know what you mean.

Kemi is brilliant on safeguarding and gender ideology. Really clear, intelligent, brave.

I just do not agree with her economics at all.

I still can't vote for the Conservatives, I am not a swing voter. I either vote socialist or spoil. But I'm becoming increasingly uneasy with the childish tribalism one seems to have to display as a Labour supporter. It feels so meaningless when actually our women/ safeguarding /country /environment are pretty fucked. We really need intelligent engagement, not playground chanting.

Completely agree with you, Funnytalk

Oh that thinking definitely exists.

Many left wing women literally cannot fathom why any women would be conservative.

The belief that Tories are bad people who hate women runs deep, and becomes assumed as a truth. It's usually backed by some fuzzy logic based around: tories hate poor people, take money away from them instead of giving it, and this hurts women most.

The other trope is that tories want women chained to kitchen sinks with their 'traditional' values.
I was at a conservative women in business meeting with Liz Truss the other day, and thought about this trope with a smile! The number of sharp women running their own businesses, all tories, was amazing.

I rememeber thinking this way myself and really struggling with Margaret Thatcher, and having to basically ignore the fact she was a women as it just didn't make sense to my politics or my feminism. The only way to sqaure it was to 'hate' her.

I think though this tribalism is much less prevalent now on the feminist boards than it is on the main boards.

Probably because we've all really had to grapple with some hard realities over the past few years which have challenged some tropes or assumptions.

I have a personal foible about the word 'scum'. I find it unconscionable that anyone uses it to describe other humans.

Probably because we've all really had to grapple with some hard realities over the past few years which have challenged some tropes or assumptions.

I can't say it's been enjoyable having to learn to question all my previously comfortably held assumptions, but I really hope that at very least I've become less credulous, more critically-minded, and more open-minded. Plus (more) resistant to going along with what other people say.

Ask for evidence, check assertions, make up your own mind, keep asking questions. It's hard work but it's the only sensible way to proceed.

The belief that Tories are bad people who hate women runs deep, and becomes assumed as a truth. It's usually backed by some fuzzy logic based around: tories hate poor people, take money away from them instead of giving it, and this hurts women most.

Yes it definitely goes a bit like this! I've been guilty of that myself. I'm still a socialist but I no longer believe all tories are evil.

I think there's also an inability to understand that there are working class and immigrant people for whom Conservative values resonate (low taxes, aspiration of personal wealth, we all have the same chances, people who work hard are rewarded etc).

Many left wing women literally cannot fathom why any women would be conservative.

They also cannot fathom why anyone from a minority background would be Conservative. Which goes some way to explain the vitriol KB has been on the receiving end of.

No, but I was under the impression that she mean MN in general. In any case I think what it shows is that the attitude in question is alive and well.

If you question shuch people what I find is that they actually don't know much, or anything, about the theory or history of political conservatism. Some actually seem to believe that it's a kind of Ayn Rand selfishness, greed is good viewpoint. Which really is a kind of radical libertarianism that is anything but conservative, though you can find economic libertarians in right wing parties - much like social libertarianism or anarchism isn't particularly socialist but you find those people within the left parties.

FWR is interesting because I think you have a lot of people here who have in the past aligned with the left. And not only have they been let down, they have also started to see that there may be things about the left in particular that have made them vulnerable to this thinking. The tendency to be ideological, for example. The tendency to abstract social action from individuals and places to a kind of abstraction of the person, which now often is expressed in the form of an identity group.

Which means that the value of other political philosophies begins to become apparent, and it becomes important to try and understand them, their logic. And it makes people more inclined to be open minded about the arguments of that position.

"I think there's also an inability to understand that there are working class and immigrant people for whom Conservative values resonate (low taxes, aspiration of personal wealth, we all have the same chances, people who work hard are rewarded etc)."

Totally agree @FunnyTalks .

I could see the red wall landslide coming a mile off following Brexit. There is a huge misalignment between the attitudes being taken by the leftist urban degree level educated class and the working classes they imagine they represent.

This is also happening in the USA with the Latino vote moving republican because they hold the same values and aspirations.
While the democrats claim to represent the working classes as long as they remain oppressed victims.

This is a bit off topic now with feminism but linked in the assumptions that have been made about groups and how they'd vote.

I'd make a bet that 10 years from now, unless they radically change their approach, the Dems will have lost a significant chunk of the black vote as well. There is already an increasing number put off by the state of the Dem run cities and their approach to id pol, and increasing visibility of prominent black Republicans.

It really does feel like watching an implosion.

This is a really interesting thread, particularly in the context of the demands to have:
a) The subdivision of the FWR section into feminism and sex and gender discussion.
b)The immediate protest of any discussion elsewhere on MN and the demand that the thread is moved to the "naughty corner".
It is almost as if certain people are terrified to read any discussion around women's rights in case their beliefs are challenged in any way, or they might see something that, deep down, they agree with.

It is sad consequence endofthelinefinally as it means that countless Mumsnetters / parents struggling with their child being caught up in the excessive levels of social contagion may not get to hear the nuanced discussions that we have on here. With so many schools and the extremist groups all pushing that narrative of "puberty blockers for children yay", it means that they may be unaware of the reasons for the GIDs closure and the harm that's been done to children - and that there are sources of support for them.

Yes. I think that was one of the main reasons for the campaign for the subject to be removed to a separate, less obvious area of MN. Censorship really. However, I am sure I read some time ago that this particular board has a lot of traffic and a high number of new visitors.