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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

They/Them pronouns but gender conforming

132 replies

WorkEvent · 29/07/2022 14:36

Can anyone explain to me why someone would choose (or not choose?) to identify as ‘non binary’ but then outwardly appear to conform to the gender stereotypes of their biological sex? Like, what part of you is non binary if you are a biological woman who dresses in traditionally feminine clothing? Surely in order for this to be ‘a thing’ you have to buy into some nonsense about male and female brains being different? Isn’t this idea inherently sexist? Am I missing something?

OP posts:
bumblingbovine49 · 30/07/2022 11:27

My take on it is that it is someone who wants to escape the ' gender' norms in that they don't want to be judged on the gender they present as and deal with this by saying they are no particular gender.

I can actually sympathise with the sentiment though take issue they the problem with gender stereotypes can be dealt with in this way

I have less trouble with someone who says they are non binary ( at least in terms of their gender expression as I don't believe you can negate the biological fact of sex ) than with trans men and women who insist we use the opposite pronoun for them and insisted they are the opposite sex/ gender ( so confusing which they mean ) whilst arguing that gender/ sex is fluid .

If gender ( as in the outward stereotypical expression of sex and not someone's actual sex) is fluid ( which I can get on board with ) then why all the stress about being accepted as a woman or a man , why is it so important to be seen as one or the other ?

It is all beyond me

Bringingsexybacktomonaghan · 30/07/2022 12:04

It's a signifier of an attention seeker.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 30/07/2022 12:18

But back then people would say they were androgynous instead of saying they were nonbinary. Both mean the exact same thing. The trans ideology isn’t really anything new. It’s simply new labels for old ideas

People who presented in an androgynous way didn't pretend they were the opposite sex or have 'no' sex though.

That's the issue.

No one gives a flying fuck what hairstyle or clothes a person chooses to reflect their unique personality, it's when these people think these things actually change their sex or their requirement to stick to spaces and services designated for their own sex that it becomes a problem.

As well as the fact they expect everyone else to go along with gender nonsense to their own detriment.

IamAporcupine · 30/07/2022 12:41

But back then people would say they were androgynous instead of saying they were nonbinary. Both mean the exact same thing.

But that is not correct. Androgynous was always about looks and appeareance. As per PP example, you would never describe Courtney Stodden as androgynous.

Or are you suggesting that people like Cortney or the OP's friend, feel very androgynous inside, but because of eg. societal expectations, they are preasured into gender conformity?
So then, for their inner gender identity to be validated we have to change the way we speak about them? 🙄

LK1972 · 30/07/2022 12:53

@Discovereads I agree with a lot of what you wrote about 'gender'.

It confirmed to me that 'gender' is a useless term to classify humanity by, as it's fluid and self-described and should be excised from legal and scientific discourse.

We stick with 'sex' as protected characteristic, and continue to fight discrimination based on societal assumptions about female sex, greatly assisted by removing fluid term 'gender' from any field where precise definitions are required, and expected.

What do you think?

Glad we agree.

LK1972 · 30/07/2022 12:55

Sorry, the last sentence should not be there, the edit button would have been useful Blush

AlisonDonut · 30/07/2022 13:11

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/07/2022 14:53

Your go-to guide is definitely this but I've given a spoiler below as it's a very long essay: Brock Colyar on Pronouns, Identifying as Nonbinary.

"These days, it feels as if an identity that, not long ago, felt unique to me in most rooms I entered has gone mass. Yes, part of what I’m personally upset about is the fact that this thing I loved isn’t so alt anymore. But more than that, it feels as if pronoun culture has contributed to nonbinary becoming just the third gender after male and female, more static and concrete than its original fluid intentions. The same nonbinary person who complained about nonbinary stereotypes lamented to me, “I don’t want to be a homogeneous normcore mashing of the two genders.” Ben hoped, “If man or woman can mean so many things, then so can nonbinary.” We all became nonbinary to escape gendered expectations, and now we’re stuck again. I can’t help but think that the walking-on-eggshells battle for pronouns is turning my gender into a human-resources-approved corporate product, more neutered than neutral, and, maybe above all else, profoundly unromantic. Next time, just call me by my name."

www.thecut.com/article/brock-colyar-pronouns-nonbinary-essay.html?

I felt exactly the same when Duran Duran released Hungry like the Wolf and went global.

viques · 30/07/2022 13:15

Pallisers · 29/07/2022 15:54

yeah I know a woman, married to a man, dresses like a 1950s woman (nice style nothing wrong with it) who is they/them and queer and god forbid you get their pronouns wrong you misgendering bigot. If I were actually gay I'd be so annoyed at the colonisation of LGB by straight tourists.

As someone born in the 1950s I would be so furious at them culturally appropriating my childhood decade I would not be able to speak. I would look daggers though, lip curl and possibly sneer.

theclangersarecoming · 30/07/2022 18:12

“Androgyne” was a seventeenth century neoClassical coinage meaning “man-woman” (Greek: andro + gyne) — originally to refer to “hermaphrodites” or intersex persons, but more broadly meaning someone who looked visibly like both sexes. It was entirely about the body and what someone looks like and the body being “between” or having visible characteristics from both biological sexes.

It had nothing at all to do with an invisible interior essence, completely the reverse. So actually nothing at all like being “nonbinary” today and they are not at all synonymous.

nepeta · 30/07/2022 18:30

'Gender' used in some sentence online is almost like someone inserting a question mark for a word that can no longer be understood, as often we have no way of knowing what the original writer might be referring to, though knowing their political/ideological affiliation does give some hints.

For the majority, probably, it's a polite euphemism for biological sex, for quite a few others it's the bundle of roles, rules, stereotypes etc. that a particular culture assigns those of a particular sex, and so mostly bad news for feminists, and for some it's akin to a soul or something innate that is not based on the person's biological sex and must take precedence over sex.

For some it seems to be a giant part of their own inner understanding of themselves and the reason why they want the whole world to use gender that way, for others it's just fucking irritating sexist bullshit and should be mostly irrelevant (my feelings, as is probably clear), and probably for many it's a very small part of their lives and something they haven't paid much attention to, especially if their culture happens to favour their sex.

When I began reading more on the gender identity ideology I was struck by its retrogressive nature, the way gender stereotypes where reified, and the way the concept of being gender-nonconforming was treated.

I always thought that earlier feminism would have made gender-nonconforming behaviour something that people in the West might not even notice anymore. After all, most women wear jeans and trousers and so on, short hair for women has been widespread since the 1920s etc, and many men have had long hair in various historical eras, including today.

But something has changed in the last twenty years, and not for the better. So now 'gender-nonconforming' people are once again to be seen as a deviation from the norm, and by choosing a nonbinary identity a person can signal nonconformity with the assumed binary gender roles which are based on extreme stereotypes (Barbie dolls and GI Joes in the Mermaid graph).

So in this new gender identity ideology being gender-nonconforming is not part of trying to get rid of gender stereotypes but rather strengthening them for almost everyone else.

theclangersarecoming · 30/07/2022 21:11

@nepeta — yes, exactly. Your post made me think of two things: the first is that we all (as just ordinary people) know that nobody “conforms” to gender roles anyway in practice: hence the large amount of social policing people do of children and adults.

And so much of “gender conforming” is a form of play-acting, performing and putting on, even leaving Judith Butler out of the picture — we all know about “dressing up” for special occasions, putting on makeup and jewellery, shaving, perfume and aftershave, “nice” clothes, uniforms, different clothes for different activities, and so on. We also (though it’s rarely mentioned in these debates) are hugely aware that “gender roles” are heavily class inflected. So it’s normal that people confirm to “gender expectations” in some ways, within their own social groups; but that often these expectations are disapproved of by adjacent social groups.

Just think of the number of behaviours and forms of dress thought of as gender conforming by one social class in British culture, but thought of by other social classes completely differently — eg. clothes or behaviours thought of as feminine or female coded for working class communities but as “masculine” for middle class communities and differentnagsin for the upper middle or upper class. So without even bringing in queer theory or anything else, we all know that what is coded for different genders is very variable but also not performed all the time but often only for specific occasions.

The second thing I was thinking of is how much the idea of being “nonbinary” draws from a kind of misunderstood poststructuralism, in which it’s imagined that “binaries” are de facto bad and oppressive. But actual poststructuralism is careful to stress that “binary” terms, in language and in concepts, are never stable — they are always shifting and collapsing into one another — but they also can never be “got outside of”, because if you try to, you always end up at another pair of binary terms or another set of binary oppositions. Paired ideas and opposites in our language like light/dark, white/black, up/down, open/closed, positive/negative, all sort of reproduce themselves whenever you try to think without them.

So if you try to “get outside of” a binary like man/woman, you end up creating another binary (nonbinary/binary). So (a) you’re at another binary again, just a slightly different one. And funnily enough it maps onto positive/negative connotations just like before (nonbinary as positive, binary as negative). Just like our familiar old set of genders, man/woman, which are also coded positive/negative, and also map onto light (man, sun) / dark (woman, moon) and knowledge (man, rationality, surface, learning, the European, the powerful, the coloniser) / unknowability (woman, mysterious, depth, ignorance, the East, the subject, the colonised).

And (b) when you generate a new binary of nonbinary/binary you simply reproduce the inside/outside binarism, the term and the non-term, and so on. If the new adherents of “nonbinary” really did know their queer poststructuralism, they would be aware that you can never get “outside” of a binary to somewhere new outside of language — even the idea of inside/outside is itself a binarism, of course.

In the end, the idea of being “innately” nonbinary is daft - since how could you be innately a negative term to something else that only exists in social norms?

The whole ideology of it is completely full of holes and incoherent bits of pseudo-theoretical jargon, badly used. (I wouldn’t mind so much if it was well used, but it isn’t.) I can even get gingerly on board with some of Butler’s original ideas about gender, since those at least had some coherent thought behind them. But even she has merrily jettisoned these for woke points and rarely makes coherent sense any more. “Nonbinary” as an idea is completely contradictory to her own earlier work, which would suggest that you can’t perform a non-conformance with something, only varying degrees of conforming to it.

DameMaud · 01/08/2022 09:15

theclangersarecoming · 29/07/2022 23:52

Ah - so if gender can be anything one wants it to be, then no-one is by your own measure understanding gender wrong as you claim.

Except - it isn’t true, is it, that a social construct can be anything you want it to be, because social constructs are limited by material, as well as social, realities.

Money is a social construct, but my imagination can’t magic more into my account.

Many scientific theories are social or intellectual constructs - there are very serious academic arguments for example that large parts of mathematics are constructs - but despite the fact that much of probability theory may be a conceptual construct, there aren’t more than two sides to a coin flip.

Art and literature is a an imaginative construct, but I don’t get to argue that the French impressionists influenced medieval iconography, or claim that I wrote Anna Karenina. I also can’t just think great poetry out of my head onto the page, which ought to be more than possible if social constructs can be anything you want them to be.

Law is a social construct, but if I murder someone I can’t imagine my way out of a murder trial; or claim that I don’t recognise the legality of the Crown Court because I’m an anarchist and get off scot free.

Nation-states are social constructions, but somehow I don’t get to imagine my way into being an American, or get to get on a plane to China without a passport and visa because the imaginative possibilities of nationhood are limitless.

We could go on with these basic examples of how something being a social construct doesn’t mean that it’s some kind of limitless made up imaginative potential.

If gender is anything you want it to be, then it ceases to have any particular meaning. So why would anyone be complaining if they’re misgendered or not? Because logically you could just say anything about gender and so could anyone else, and as such my view of gender is just as valid as anyone else’s, so I don’t have to care a jot what theirs is. And neither can they complain about mine.

I mean, sounds great; but it seems like the gender ideologues actually care quite a lot about defining what gender is and forcing everyone else to agree.

Brilliant!

babyjellyfish · 01/08/2022 10:27

Discovereads · 29/07/2022 20:29

Gender is all about one’s inner life. So there would be no visually observable outer difference. Might as well ask what is the difference between a Jewish woman and a Christian woman?

I am not religious but I can explain roughly what Jews believe and what Christians believe and why it is important to them.

Nobody can actually explain what gender is beyond it being some sort of indescribable feeling that the rest of us are expected to affirm.

I fully support Jewish people's right to practise their religion in peace and live their lives in the way that makes the most sense to them. Same for people who believe they have a gender identity, come to that.

But I can't think of a single way in which I am obliged to modify my own behaviour, beliefs or manner of self expression to accommodate Jewish people's beliefs, other than perhaps ensuring their dietary requirements are catered for - in the same way that I would ensure a vegetarian or a coeliac's dietary requirements are catered for - at an event I was organising, and not serving pork chops if I were to invite a Jewish person over for dinner.

Slothtoes · 24/08/2022 11:55

I have been contacted professionally by someone (typically male name) with he/they pronouns. What does that mean about how they want to be regarded? NB or he? Both, or alternately one and then the other? When? How are we supposed to know?
I just want to do collaborative work together and I really don’t care about anyone’s gender identity but now feel I have to tread carefully with this one person, and I have very limited time and energy for that.

I find it so unprofessional. Please don’t bring your whole self to work, or if you insist on doing that, could you at least please be very clear about exactly what you actually want from other people.

MsRosley · 25/08/2022 08:12

PriamFarrl · 29/07/2022 14:47

But if gendered clothes don’t mean anything, which I agree with, how do people ‘live as a woman/man’? What does that mean?

@PriamFarrl You're making the classic error of thinking gender ideology makes any sense. It has no internal logical coherence whatsoever.

FrancescaContini · 25/08/2022 13:10

MsRosley · 25/08/2022 08:12

@PriamFarrl You're making the classic error of thinking gender ideology makes any sense. It has no internal logical coherence whatsoever.

Absolutely this. I have never read or heard any explanation that makes any sense, but have been told several times that it’s “very complex”. Clearly so complex that a young teenager can apparently grasp it but I can’t.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2022 14:17

WorkEvent · 29/07/2022 15:16

I suppose it all comes down to your definition of gender?

To me, gender IS expression, however ‘reductive’ that seems. Because it’s not biology. And what else is there? I am female and therefor I am a woman. I can wear whatever I like and I am still ultimately female. I don’t know how I could feel male, or non binary, because I don’t have the lived experience to know how those things feel.

Strictly speaking I suppose gender is a shared social contract/understanding/stereotype/belief.

'women ought to/ought not to do this'

So clothing is one part of 'gender' - expression is the visual element of gender - but the rest includes behavioural expectations - 'women should be kind' is a gendered expectation/stereotypes/belief.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2022 14:18

Sex is material reality; gender is social contract/agreement/expectation.

The latter is of course arbitrary to an extent, changeable and choosable. The former is a very simple fact and can't be changed.

TheKeatingFive · 25/08/2022 14:20

Strictly speaking I suppose gender is a shared social contract/understanding/stereotype/belief.

It has never been absolute however. There have always been women who have behaved, acted, dressed, expressed differently. And until very recently, no suggestion this affected their status as women

ErrolTheDragon · 25/08/2022 14:35

Strictly speaking I suppose gender is a shared social contract/understanding/stereotype/belief.

Shared or imposed?

babyjellyfish · 25/08/2022 14:42

Strictly speaking I suppose gender is a shared social contract/understanding/stereotype/belief.

I never signed up to it.

Can it truly be said to be shared if it is imposed on us without our consent?

ValancyRedfern · 25/08/2022 15:45

For teen girls it's a way to escape the pornified expectations and carve a slightly more comfortable niche for themselves. It also shows they believe utterly that gender stereotypes are somehow innate. I think it reveals a whole heap of internalised misogyny, but it's not the teen girls'fault, it's the porn and rape culture world they're growing up in.

Ohnohedident · 25/08/2022 16:00

Postsynapticdensity · 29/07/2022 16:32

It is not true that gendered clothes dont matter or don't mean anything.

They don't matter in the sense that they dont change or determine your sex, which is a biological reality.

But they do matter and they do mean something in other ways. What we wear, and how we present ourselves, is a communication tool. That's why we wear uniforms, brands, ceremonial robes etc. When I choose what I put on in the morning I am choosing to express something something about me to the world. This could be many things: "I have authority" "I am wealthy" "I have power" "I have a professional job" "I am here to serve you" "I am sexually available" "I follow trends" "I'm not interested in sex" "I value my comfort above all" "I belong to a tribe" "I want to break stereotypes" "I need to conform"....etc etc but above all through human life, the way we dress says something very specific (apart from showcasing wealth or status). It says I am this sex (gender??) . And thats important because we dont reproduce via osmosis, we need someone from the opposite sex, so we need to identify who these individuals are. After that we need to be more sophisticated and identify the fertile ones,. the ones that will bear offspring and look after it. This is just super basic. This is why women and men dress differently throughout history and culture and why we emphasise those features that make us available. The other other crucial reason is that our bodies are different because our sexes are different. Women have traditionally worn skirts that made peeing squatting quite easy!

This is why the very first thing you do when you want to live like the opposite sex, is change your clothes. You dont ask for a pay rise, or stop buying birthday cards for all your family... you put some jeans or some lipstick on.

That doesnt mean that women cease to be women if they cease to wear stereotypically female clothes. In that sense, clothes dont matter because they dont change biology. You can present yourself however you want and still be a man or a woman. But you can not deny the importance of appearance as a communication tool. It is important

Wow. Just wow.

And my only criteria when getting dressed is 'will my line manager give me the side eye?' and if the answer is no, then we all good.

FrancescaContini · 25/08/2022 21:50

@Postsynapticdensity Thank you for clarifying that we don’t reproduce by osmosis but by finding a mate of the opposite sex - I’ve been wondering for a very long time how the human race has kept going for so long. Thank God we have CLOTHING to tell us which humans are of the opposite sex otherwise none of us would have a clue!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 25/08/2022 22:38

From the Brock Colyer article Jesse Powell ... told his staff ... “It’s just not practical to allow 3,000 people to customize their pronouns.”

Jesse Powell is right. People optimise. We use "him" and "her" instead of "Fred" and "Mary" and "James" and all the hundreds of other proper names because it makes communication quicker and easier. Pronouns are not there to be a declaration of everyone's internal state. Pronouns are there so we don't have to recall what everyone else calls themselves all the time.

The simplest way would be to have the same pronoun for everyone whatever their sex (or gender). Having two pronoun groups is still useful because it narrows down who you're talking about without extra mental effort - as long as it's obvious who's who from their appearance or name or we easily remember which group. So two sexes makes an easy division for pronouns. But if there are many groups of pronouns, if people have to remember individual preferences or think carefully about which pronoun to use, then there's no point using pronouns at all. They'll just slow everyone down and get in the way of communication.