I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

[MsFogi]

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

I didn't say they didn't exist, I said we didn't have an influx. I also didn't say we didn't have segregated spaces for different races, I said we largely don't have them for living out day to day life.

I don’t think it’s the wish of many trans women to encroach on those spaces.

Really,* *@Didimum?

she asked Survivors’ Network, the Brighton-based government-funded charity for victims of sexual violence that ran the group, if there could be a female-only group.

“It seemed like a reasonable thing to ask, because they had a group for trans women, and a trans-inclusive group for women, so two groups for people born male, but none just for females,” she says.

unherd.com/2022/07/why-im-suing-survivors-network/

Why do you think a transwoman would want to use the women's group rather than the trans group, when some of the women were uncomfortable with the presence of a transwoman? What reason could there be other than to encroach on women's spaces?

I don’t believe the resources those groups alone have are enough to change very large and physical infrastructure.

Not even Stonewall? Stonewall had an income of over £11.5m in the 18 months to 31st March 2021 according to their most recent accounts, including over £1.8m from government sources.

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02412299/filing-history

I didn't say they didn't exist, I said we didn't have an influx.

But if we have some, then we can have more, so your semantics aren't very important here.

And it's the principle. How can you stand over 'physical attributes' being less important than a 'sense of belonging' for one situation but not another?

I also didn't say we didn't have segregated spaces for different races, I said we largely don't have them for living out day to day life.

Super. So if I, as a white person identify as African American and want apply for a race based scholarship, should I be considered on equal terms? If not, why not? If physical characteristics don't supersede feelings?

I said we largely don't have them for living out day to day life.

So you think all spaces should be fully mixed sex? If not, what is your point?

I feel it disadvantages the world I live in, and so you many, many other woman. This is harmful to them.

How exactly is it harmful to women (not males you think are women, that's not what I am talking about, actual females) to respect other women's privacy and dignity around the opposite sex?

I feel it disadvantages the world I live in that the only feelings people care about are male ones.

I am hugely conflicted on the subject of sports and prisons.

Using these as an example though @Didimum, why do you find them a big internal conflict if you believe that we shouldn't cause pain to those who don't deserve it?

Girls and women in strength, power and speed based sports cannot compete fairly (or safely in the case of contact sports) against natal men. Why is the pain of women losing scholarships, losing games, being harmed when playing etc less important than the pain of trans women who want to compete against them?

Girls and women in prison are already vulnerable to abuse and likely to underreport assaults. They are statistically more likely to have been victims of abuse in their pre-prison life. Why is the pain of multiple women being unsettled, disturbed, triggered or frightened by the presence of someone with a penis less important than the emotional pain of someone with a penis who would like to be in the female prison population?

Girls and women should not be expected to hold all the compassion for others, especially not at the expense of their own health and wellbeing.

Can you see how it is difficult to understand you asking people to be compassionate despite saying you're conflicted about sports and prisons? Where is the compassion for all the girls and women affected?

I don’t think it is a woman’s job, but many women want it to be their job.

Good for them, it's not my job or a "women's job".

They need to find other solutions to the problem of males not feeling happy in male spaces so that they can carry on being virtuous and progressive on their own time, rather than shitting on other women and girls.

I also think that a lot of these women are extremely naive, sheltered and impractical.

Sorry - I hadn't seen this post when I jumped in. This is the woman I was talking about in my post.

Thank you @ErrolTheDragon

Exactly this.

Isn't it often the case that women agitating for men to be admitted into women's spaces are often unlikely to need those spaces themselves? Usually because they're privileged enough to have alternatives and/or be extremely unlikely to be in a position to need them.

The ‘it’s personality’ argument sounds like something potentially great for the future – it’s potentially a vein of thinking that allows many people to grow up and live comfortably in their own skin, and also perhaps why the identification of being ‘non-binary’ is on the increase. But practically, a society which largely asks us to operate in a binary way cannot switch from one thing to another without wading through the chasm between – so what is it to be done in that chasm in between? How does one get from end to the other in the least combative and divided way
So the short answer is you do not have a sense of womanhood, cannot define it. Because that's what I asked and you copied.
What chasm?

As for the other stuff about race , Rachel Dolezal and Oli london and Xiahn Nishi

So that's three in the news, which means many more not in the news

Transabled is actually a huge number worldwide, but it's not often mentioned. People live with it for a very long time, its actually biid I think. Well documented just not much newsworthy.

And finally, I don’t think it is a woman’s job, but many women want it to be their job. Part of my reasoning, for example, is that I know many trans women also feel deeply under threat from male violence
No one here is trying to change your mind, you do you and if you want to do something for transwomen (I note that you use transwomen every time, never a mention of transmen) you go right ahead. But whatever you do cannot involve single sex spaces, because I said NO.
I say no, not for me, but for all those other women who for reasons cannot say it. For the girls who have no real voice, for DV survivors, for CSA survivors, for rape Survivors for all women who have PTSD and those with the fear response to men in their single sex spaces.

No one here is trying to change your mind, you do you and if you want to do something for transwomen (I note that you use transwomen every time, never a mention of transmen) you go right ahead. But whatever you do cannot involve single sex spaces, because I said NO.

Yes, these women need to go back to their male friends and say, "I love you, you are valid, but we need to find an alternative together, because other women and girls need their spaces and they matter too ".

No one here is trying to change your mind, you do you and if you want to do something for transwomen (I note that you use transwomen every time, never a mention of transmen) you go right ahead. But whatever you do cannot involve single sex spaces, because I said NO.

"Transmen" barely get a look in - that's because they are women, and unimportant.

But practically, a society which largely asks us to operate in a binary way cannot switch from one thing to another without wading through the chasm between – so what is it to be done in that chasm in between?

It's not that hard, huge advances have already been made - thanks to suffragettes, feminists and their allies. I'd much rather continue as a GC feminist putting my energy into breaking down inequities and stereotypes than waste them on propping up 'gender'.
Sex is inescapable, there's serious work to be done on structural sexism. But a lot of that is around issues relating to pregnancy and childcare, really not anything particularly relevant to trans males 'gender' issues.

Sorry, yes that was a typo. My 90% was supposed to be 99%

No one here is trying to change your mind, you do you and if you want to do something for transwomen (I note that you use transwomen every time, never a mention of transmen) you go right ahead. But whatever you do cannot involve single sex spaces, because I said NO.

Yes, these women need to go back to their male friends and say, "I love you, you are valid, but we need to find an alternative together, because other women and girls need their spaces and they matter too ".

A million times this.

@Didimum

It's not a straw man argument to draw parallels with race. It's important as a way of highlighting the importance of the dominant group not feeling entitled to the protecrions afforded the less dominant and powerful group. If it's ok for a TW to take a space on a female shortlist then it's ok for a white person to take a scholarship reserved for a person of colour. If it's ok for a man to have q say in whether a prison remains female only or becomes mixed sex, then it's ok for a white person to have a say in whether that scholarship continues. Centring the white person, or the man shows ignorance of privilege. Men do not get to have a say in whether protections from men should continue for women. Not in any civilised society. Just as I don't get to say whether racism is a problem or not.

I can substantiate this.

DidiMum

do we respect her boundary, or do we respect the male's wishes more than her boundary?

First of all just wanted to say I found the first part of your reply very compelling. It’s something I dwell a lot on, for sure. The above however – it isn’t necessarily the male’s wish, but the wish of the other women being asked the question. Over all, however, of course I see your point.

Okay, it doesnt' really matter who is saying yes; what it boils down to is does one woman's 'no' outweight the 'yesses' of those who don't mind. I say it does; that's how consent works - 'no' is given more weight than 'yes'. The numbers involved are immaterial - if one person says 'no' then the answer is 'no' no matter how many say 'yes'.

Rape survivors want and need a.male free space for obvious reasons. These services were set up for the most part by and for women - the history of the movement is stirring.If transwomen need these sevices then this would be a perfect use of some of Stonewalls enormous resources. Instead a woman is told she can't have a single sex space and that she is a bigot for asking.

I don’t think it’s the wish of many trans women to encroach on those spaces. As I said before, I think it’s a line taken by the most extreme, with the loudest voices. I was asked before, ‘well why don’t those with the softer voices speak up?' – but surely we all know how media works, it’s harrowing at the very least, especially in this climate, and can do real damage to someone’s well being to engage in it. You have the extremes of both ends of the spectrum shouting down everyone in the middle – and the middle is where the solutions often lie, or if not solutions, then at least the ability to understand one another.

What about the males who are pretending to be transwomen in order to transgress boundaries? For example, IAmSarah's rape survivor group included a male with a male name, who presented in male clothes, who sat smiling through the session. This may have been a transwoman who chose to present as a male and was there legitimately. Or it may have been a male who wanted to transgress womens' boundaries.

How can we tell the difference? That is a serious question.

When a male entered the women's space at the Wi Spa in Los Angeles the women and girls who objected were told it was a transwomen and they were 'being a dick' for raising it as an issue. The person was indeed a transwoman - who has previous convictions for sexual offences.

Okay, it doesnt' really matter who is saying yes; what it boils down to is does one woman's 'no' outweight the 'yesses' of those who don't mind. I say it does; that's how consent works - 'no' is given more weight than 'yes'. The numbers involved are immaterial - if one person says 'no' then the answer is 'no' no matter how many say 'yes'.

Exactly. As I pointed out, it doesn't harm women to respect other women's privacy and dignity and wish for a single sex space. I'm not convinced at all that women who want to take single sex spaces away on behalf of males lose anything when they don't get their way.

I don’t think it’s the wish of many trans women to encroach on those spaces

Also, I agree. I think many transwomen just want to live their lives and have no interest in accessing women's spaces - many of them understand very well the reasons why women want single sex spaces and respect those wishes. Several transwomen have spoken up (at great personal risk and to their own detriment - I salute their courage) on this issue.

I refer you to Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton, Fionne Orlander, Kristina Harrison, Blair White, Seven Hex, and many more, some anonymous.

Women on here have pointed out for a long time that this isn't even really about 'trans' issues - it's about women's ability to say 'no' and have that 'no' respected.

Which leaves the question: What do we do about the males and transwomen who do want to access women's single sex spaces and do not respect those wishes? By definition, the problems will only crop up when women's wishes are not respected.

It's a bit like males who have committed sex offences who then ID as women when in prison. To believe them, we are taking the word of someone whom has proven themselves to be a predator, liar, and who specifically and deliberately breaks women's boundaries and ignores consent. Anyone who is willing to ignore the feelings, requests, wishes, desires and possible harms of having a male in a women's space has already demonstrated their lack of empathy and respect and care, which I would say should bar them from the space.

I agree here with TRAs who say that if you believe TWAW, then it doesnt matter if someone is a rapist - if you are sticking to the TWAW rule then they go into women's prisons if they say they want to, you can't refuse them.

This is (one reason among several) I can't accept that TWAW.

I agree here with TRAs who say that if you believe TWAW, then it doesnt matter if someone is a rapist - if you are sticking to the TWAW rule then they go into women's prisons if they say they want to, you can't refuse them.

This is (one reason among several) I can't accept that TWAW

Exactly. You can't say TWAW and then add a BUT, either they are or they are not obfuscating with legal and biological as Penny Mordaunt tried to do does not work, it is one of the aspects that is causing this mess.

TW are a subset of men, they are male they have to be to be TW, they are not a subset of women.