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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

909 replies

MsFogi · 21/07/2022 18:25

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 23/07/2022 22:53

This is my grand contribution to the T**F Wars of the Twenties: my bookmark collection. Some women are polished writers and speakers, some are brilliant publicists, philosophers or organisers.

Me though? I bookmark stuff.

IcakethereforeIam · 23/07/2022 23:07

I've never read that before. Thanks @PurgatoryOfPotholes , OP and, in his/him's own small way, Paul.

PearlClutch · 23/07/2022 23:18

...in the Jim Crow South, segregated public-toilet doors marked Men, Women and Colored underscored how the legal recognition of a gender binary has been a privilege of whiteness.

aseriesofstillimages - this article suggests segregation by sex is a privilege? Why is it a privilege? And why would anyone want to remove that?

I've just read the beginning, willl come back and read more tomorrow.

PearlClutch · 23/07/2022 23:24

Oh, wow, that was a really short article! I think after it said 'it's complicated' I was expecting more.

Okay. So it still doesn't really say why it's complicated?

What I'm getting for that article is that woman = feminine.

I'm not sure this is really very helpful. Can you expand? What is 'feminine'? Can you describe, and define? If a man can be 'feminine' then how can woman = feminine?

TheBiologyStupid · 23/07/2022 23:26

IcakethereforeIam · 23/07/2022 20:27

Look what Paul started! I hope this will make everyone think long and hard before going anywhere near 'pronouns'.Grin

Indeed!

MsFogi · 23/07/2022 23:38

VestofAbsurdity · 23/07/2022 21:22

in my view, it’s complicated.

The bog standard response for : I haven't got any argument or evidence to back up what I'm saying

Possibly time for...Russell's Teapot (with huge thanks to a wonderful poster on the MN Feminism boards for introducing me to the concept)?

OP posts:
TheBiologyStupid · 23/07/2022 23:40

Strictlyfanoftenyears · 23/07/2022 21:45

I assumed that it was just done to be trendy these days (pronouns on email)?

Yes, it seems pretty trendy and harmless, but it really isn't:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/19/pronouns-compulsion-and-controversy/

Phobiaphobic · 24/07/2022 00:05

This thread couldn't get any funnier. Nice one, OP!

WillMcAvoy · 24/07/2022 00:22

aseriesofstillimages · 23/07/2022 16:36

You do potentially need to know whether to refer to them as ‘he’, ‘she’ or ‘they’

No. I can just refer to Paul as "Paul", can't I?

Ohnohedident · 24/07/2022 00:32

aseriesofstillimages · 23/07/2022 17:41

Obviously I disagree with you on that, but don’t we all basically think we’re the ones whose views reflect reality?

If you believe your beliefs are real can you explain why you would not comission a transwoman to be a surrogate?

IcakethereforeIam · 24/07/2022 00:38

Complete tangent, but I keep seeing a thread title in Trending, 'in labour and alone - hand hold please', why do I keep thinking Keir Starmer is posting on MN? I need to go to bed.

NB, in actuality mother and baby both fine.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/07/2022 01:14

HereWeGoAgainorBust · 21/07/2022 23:03

@Tryingtokeepgoing

Keep up, the OP was doing it correctly. You never know hairy Paul might be mistaken for a female if he didn't tell everyone. How awful would that be!

I’d rather not keep up with the transphobic, homophobic subtext that pervades this thread thanks very much. Life’s too short.

IcakethereforeIam · 24/07/2022 01:15

Yet here you are.

TheBiologyStupid · 24/07/2022 01:34

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/07/2022 01:14

I’d rather not keep up with the transphobic, homophobic subtext that pervades this thread thanks very much. Life’s too short.

Can you point to a single post in this thread that is transphobic or homophobic? Even subtextually?

Conflictedunicorn · 24/07/2022 06:56

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/07/2022 01:14

I’d rather not keep up with the transphobic, homophobic subtext that pervades this thread thanks very much. Life’s too short.

Did you mean to post this here @Tryingtokeepgoing ? Or are you reading something on the thread no one else can? Is is complicated to explain?

TheKeatingFive · 24/07/2022 07:30

Ah I see we have another of those 'run into thread, scream TRANSPHOBIC, run away' posts. They're becoming ubiquitous on here and they're more than a bit pathetic.

If you believe that stay and address the points like an adult.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/07/2022 07:34

Thay are a bit boring now. It’s almost like they are admitting they have no sane argument for their ideology. I have discovered TRA kryptonite though. It’s questions. Any questions pointing out flaws in their logic make them shrivel up and slink away.

OperaStation · 24/07/2022 07:53

Kanaloa · 21/07/2022 18:45

I mean I’m not a fan of pronoun talk but presumably he put it in his email because he may at times email people who do not know he is a 6ft well built man with a deep voice. I have a contact at uni who has a name that could be either way (like Alex) and actually the pronouns were helpful in that case as I knew who to expect.

Paul would be an unusual choice of name for a woman though, wouldn’t it? If pushed, I think we would all assume he was a he.

Emotionalsupportviper · 24/07/2022 08:41

Thank you @PurgatoryOfPotholes

Excellent!

Thank you.

AlisonDonut · 24/07/2022 09:22

OperaStation · 24/07/2022 07:53

Paul would be an unusual choice of name for a woman though, wouldn’t it? If pushed, I think we would all assume he was a he.

It is this disingenuous 'I would have no idea Paul would be a man' nonsense that does my head in.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 24/07/2022 09:56

Datun · 23/07/2022 17:07

If the words CIS is going to be routinely used, then so will the term TIM (trans identified male.)

That was the deal at the time.

I would much, much rather use that latter term and its female equivalent. It's clearer. I still see people on Twitter getting confused about which sex a transman is and which sex a transwoman is, and no wonder.

PearlClutch · 24/07/2022 09:58

I get confused by all of the new terms. To be honest, I think 'man' and 'woman' worked better and were the least confusing.

PearlClutch · 24/07/2022 10:00

If we want to talk about hairstyles and clothing choices, then fine, but these have really nothing to do with biological sex, which is the thing that matters.

PearlClutch · 24/07/2022 11:12

Oops, I forgot to add my sign off.

Pearl (si/si)*

*je suis un rockstar

aseriesofstillimages · 24/07/2022 15:29

Ohnohedident · 24/07/2022 00:32

If you believe your beliefs are real can you explain why you would not comission a transwoman to be a surrogate?

Me specifically? Because both I and my partner have functioning uteruses (uterae?). If you mean someone else? Because a trans woman wouldn’t have a uterus (or any of the accompanying biological features) that would enable them to conceive and carry a child.