Irish Times - ex Minister of Justice on 'trans rights'

[PearlClutch]

'For the great, great majority, gender-based language, thought, concepts and social convention are really part of what we are – just as central to our personalities as the identity-convictions of trans people are to them. It isn’t a question of thoughtlessness.

That trans people experience rejection as a consequence of our civilisation’s social recognition and distinctions of sex and gender does not confer on them an absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis.'

Interesting thought - most often feminists come from an angle of being critical of gender, but here is someone (sorry, I'm not up on Irish politics so I don't really know much about him) positing that for many people their desire to maintain 'gender based' language is equally as legitimate as a desire to avoid or erase it.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/20/trans-rights-a-question-of-reasonableness-and-common-sense/

Michael McDowell is the man quoted, I should have said.

I agree with him. Forcing gender-neutral language upon me denied me the ability to describe the world around me, denies me the right to describe the world about me, and makes language unclear.

Our sex is fundamental to who we are, whether or not we identify with its stereotypes.

Good article, thanks OP.

I like the article, little if anything in it that I could disagree with. Seemed to balance competing interests well.

It's interesting that voices in Ireland are now starting to be heard on the matter. For a very long time, 'no debate' held sway there. I was astonished to hear the Irish politician give evidence at the Scottish Parliament and basically say - yep, we really didn't think about it much, oops, yes, we made mistakes there.

Thanks for sharing it. It was behind a paywall and I couldn't see it. Ireland has so much further to go to claw this nonsense back because selfID was snuck onto tbe statute on the back of important equal marriage law. The Countess is doing brilliant work. The TRAs are getting angry and many politicians are still in the TWAW stage of thinking on this.

Thanks for that, I'm glad the Irish Times are allowing articles such as this to stand. Hopefully there will be some letters about it in the coming days.

I only wish the current Minister for Justice would listen to him, but unfortunately she is busy 'updating' our hate crime legislation which may make misgendering a hate crime. Sigh.

www.gov.ie/en/press-release/0f17e-minister-mcentee-to-update-new-hate-crime-legislation-to-make-it-easier-to-secure-prosecutions-and-convictions/

'I agree with him. Forcing gender-neutral language upon me denied me the ability to describe the world around me, denies me the right to describe the world about me, and makes language unclear.

Our sex is fundamental to who we are, whether or not we identify with its stereotypes.'

Can you describe in more detail how deeply you have suffered as a result of these tyrannical impositions on your life, JellySaurus? Some people might read what you've said and think 'What the F is this ludicrous woman going on about ... how on Earth is she actually suffering?'

I'm sure you can show such people, with practical, day-to-day examples how you are, in fact, suffering - and how what you're going through is not at all a lot of inane, dribbling nonsense that nobody need ever care about! :)

Can you show us some examples from your daily life to prove your point? Thanks if so! :)

Yeah, and some people will read you putting words in people's mouths they've never actually said and then demanding they prove what they didn't actually say. And they might think it's ridiculous or you lack reading comprehension.

NHS can't be trusted to use language that describes me as a woman. Sadly a woman was raped on a woman's hospital ward and disbelieved for a year because the hospital refused to accept that anyone other than a woman was a patient there.
I have MS. Hospital visits are not too rare for me. Can I trust the NHS to keep me safe.
That kind of trivial thing.

'ludicrous woman ... inane, dribbling nonsense'

What's with the ad homs, Ides? Why the need to insult Jelly? Could it be that you are not able to form a coherent argument?

?? You are the one using the word 'suffering', not Jellysaurus. However, if you want to talk about practical day to day examples for women, how about the women in Limerick prison who are forced to accept male sex offenders as fellow prisoners. I'm sure they are suffering and nobody seems to give a shit.

Also, if you want to see some 'inane dribbling nonsense' read up on gender ideology.
Or if you want to see some serious hyperbole, you could read the many times trans people have talked about being 'erased' because someone didn't agree with their self image.

Not to mention the genocide.

Ides needs to use proper arguments or they will be the best advert for undoing this nonsense.

I think you should ask MN to move this to Craicnet. More Irish people, particularly women, need to see Ides' take on free speech

It's a very good article, clearly written & lacking in hyperbole & over-emotion. It's also fairly amazing the IT published it as they have essentially taken an editorial stance against anything gender-critical, or even questioning trans ideology.

Maybe IT sees the writing on the wall for Wokus Dei

We can but hope!

The Trans Writers’ Union have been boycotting the Irish Times since last November. Because how very dare someone have an unsanctioned opinion.

Going out on a limb, I suspect they’re a wee bit more bothered about the Students’ Union joining the boycott earlier this year.

Whole concept of a free press & associated journalistic integrity seems to have eluded the lot of them.

Trans Writers Union, I'm sure the IT was devastated!!

I agree with you, there seems to be this weird idea among young people and young aspiring journalists that journalism is not about getting to the truth, but rather pushing an agenda. And so long as the 'right' agenda is allowed (i.e. the one they support) then lies can and should be told in service of this.

I'm going to sound like a grumpy old shite (at 38) but I despair for young people if they cannot accept that others have a right to a different opinion, and that truth matters.

I know @Roseglen84 - amazing the Irish Times is somehow struggling on without them & people are continuing to buy the paper, too!

As for the students, I hope none of them are wanting to make a career as a journalist, because after this… 🤦‍♀️

That Irish politician in Scotland is an idiot. She was practically boasting about how misinformed the politicians and public were about the Self Id law. She's aware now, because Barbie in the women's section of Limerick prison was front page news. When that story broke nobody had any idea Barbie is a man.

The politician also made a comment that she "think's" in Ireland there are 9 Genders. No journalist asked her what those might be. Meanwhile in BBC training there are 100 genders.

But good news is that the Irish Times have an article about ex Justice Minister McDowell's views on Trans. That newspaper is very much afraid to publish such articles as they have been targeted by Irish students.

I'm an IT subscriber (although at times I have been doubting that this is a good idea) and I had a look at the letters today. Not a whisper, even from the redoubtable Bernie who appears to live for letters to the editor.

I wonder if that's because we really do know who is a man.

Excellent to see this sensible middle road starting to come from what has been so very, very captured ground.

This is the only realistic answer: everyone is entitled to use the language they wish, there is no right or entitlement to compel others to change or erase language to preserve other people's beliefs and this is an unacceptable demand, and the massive majority of people are and will continue to wish to operate on a sex based basis and should not be impeded in doing so. It is perfect possible for those who wish to use different language to do so without forcing this on others.

And there obviously, in a sane world, cannot be a two tier society in which some people have a higher level of power and an entitlement sensitivity and protection and absolute consideration of their identity and choice of language and requirement that this is at all times respected - while other people are told to shut up, put up, deal and put other people's wishes, needs and feelings first or else, and their identity and choice of language is irrelevant.

No thank you.

Artichokeleaves
And there obviously, in a sane world, cannot be a two tier society in which some people have a higher level of power and an entitlement sensitivity and protection and absolute consideration of their identity and choice of language and requirement that this is at all times respected - while other people are told to shut up, put up, deal and put other people's wishes, needs and feelings first or else, and their identity and choice of language is irrelevant.

Unfortunately, that seems to already be happening.

There's such a level of self absorption inherent in all this. Certain people throw a tantrum, make all sorts of unreasonable demands because they are the most victimised ever and ever amen.
And other people who don't want the hassle of challenging them, just either go along with it grudgingly or back away slowly and leave them at it. Which gives them carte blanche to carry on.

When did the push for 'human rights' go from wanting to be treated like everyone else, to wanting to be treated like a super special person at the expense of everyone else?

The problem is, until it directly affects them, the vast majority of people will just roll their eyes and try to ignore. There's too much apathy in Ireland about stuff like this, which means our politicians carry on making shit laws, and compounding them with other shit laws.