Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room

[Clymene]

I thought there was a thread on this but I can't find it. Maybe it was deleted? I shall choose my words very carefully.

The court found that the unnamed employee had been discriminated against because they were asked questions that a woman would not have been about whether they had been undressed in the communal women's changing area.

Judge Davies said: 'A concern about the woman's state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman.
'This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room.
'The Tribunal therefore concluded that [the manager] asked the questions because of a concern that the woman as a transgender woman might be in a state of undress in the female changing room.
There were also several serious allegations against several female co-workers but while the Trust accepts these incidents happened, no perpetrators were ever identified.

There were a number of other complaints but they were dismissed by the Court.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

I am sure I'm not alone in finding this story very disturbing.

I have been in changing rooms and shower facilities. No one has seen my fanny. Why would I wander around undressed from the waist down?

There have been multiple threads about women walking around naked, moisturising, shaving etc in full view of the rest of the changing room.

If there are cubicles like in this scenario then no one should be walking around naked.

If this transgender person had had their surgery MNers would complain she was showing off her new vagina.

I am glad she won her case as any discrimination is wrong and she was bullied simple as.

Presumably it would have been open to this NHS trust to make use of the exceptions in the Equality Act act to ensure that women have a private space to get changed away from people with penises.

But they have made use of the (single sex) exemptions by having separate men's/women's facilities.

As a poster on the other thread notes, allowing some male people in presumably invalidates that, so how could they justify refusing other males?

You’re spot on. The judge got the law wrong.

Link to the judgement:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/VvvSheffieldTeachinggHospitalsNHSSFoundationTrustt1806836-2020_Others.pdf

In case anyone wishes to read it.

FWIW Motorina's post above is an excellent summary.

I am glad she won her case as any discrimination is wrong and she was bullied simple as.

Not discrimination against women though presumably. Women have to put up with all and any boundary violations whilst maintaining a smile on our faces and professing how grateful we are.

Here’s a link to the decision.

It’s 61 pages but the parts I’ve read are interesting. I’ll avoid commenting so I don’t get this post deleted!

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/V_v_Sheffield_Teaching_Hospitals_NHS_Foundation_Trust_1806836-2020___Others.pdf

The notes and the comments are out of order & nasty.

However, surely I or anyone else has a right to go to work without being exposures to anyone's nudity or genitalia.

I wish to go through life only seeing the gentilia that I want to see.

Please can we be very careful in our language on this thread and also avoid the attempts to get it derailed?

This is an important case and more women need to be aware of it. That wont happen if the monitors get their way.

I’m afraid you must accept that for many women the sight of an unwanted penis - which may well have been more than a coy ‘glimpse’ - is far more distressing than a note.

Keep siding with the men, though.

Agree but that requires an appeal to be made which the NHS may not bother with

Thank you @Motorina for explaining and @TastefulRainbowUnicorn for the link. Will have a read.

I can understand now how this judgement was arrived at.

Remember women don't matter when it comes to men. Mens feelings first. Even when it comes to womens changing rooms.

Discussion elsewhere

ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/124281/trans-nhs-worker-wins-discrimination-case-after-being-confronted-over-underwear

But they have made use of the (single sex) exemptions by having separate men's/women's facilities.

I’m guessing they would need to be explicit. Did they make an assessment that it was a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim and then create a policy so everyone knew where they stood? Or had the TW been told that it was acceptable for them to use the women’s changing room?

I think PP is right in that this was clearly mishandled. I feel so sorry for women put in this position. It’s just like the Lia Thomas situation where women complain and are told to shut up and then when it gets personal they are the ones portrayed as awful even though it’s a reaction to having their boundaries completely trampled on.

I’d be more affected by receiving a bigoted note from work colleagues then I would accidentally catching a glimpse of a willy.

How do you define accidental? Wearing no underwear/being naked from the waist down isn't an accident.

I think the reason the Trust didn’t dispute the claims about the note and the conversation, though those claims are improbable and coming from a known liar, as you’ll see if you read the judgement, is that they didn’t do anything wrong there. The judge described their handling of the investigation into those claims as “exemplary.” So they didn’t need to dispute the truth of those claims to defend themselves and indeed there was no finding of wrongdoing against them for those allegations.

the one claim that did succeed is disturbing though. The questions about underwear came after this person

• invited their female colleague to a private room as they had something personal to share
• in this confined space, told the colleague they were feeling unwell and hot and had taken off their underwear
• illustrated that with a “wringing motion.”

maybe their female manager could have handled things better in the aftermath, but who really knows how to deal with this stuff?

Do you see any difference between a transwoman showing their penis and a man who isn't trans doing it?

Also no one shaves in a changing room.

I find it bizarre that any discussion of why someone took off their underwear in the presence of an opposite sex female colleague is apparently deemed more of a problem than the removing of the underwear.

@Datun the comparator was women. I’m sorry but I don’t know the case law at all so can’t comment on whether that’s right or wrong in law.

i said on the other thread that tribunals only look at the questions asked of them.

In this case, the question was asked by the TW. “Have I been discriminated against?”

So the tribunal looked at that.

There are other very good and valid questions.
Where should a TW change?
Does this unlawfully infringe or discriminate against the rights of women?
Is a TW who disrobes in a single sex space in the wrong?

The tribunal did not address these, because they were not asked them.

They’re not saying that the management decision that the TW use that changing room was right (or wrong). They haven’t considered it
They haven’t looked at the impact on the women. That wasn’t put to them.

Their job was to decide the validity of the TW’s claims. Mostly they decided they weren’t valid. And nothing else.

Thank you for responding.

I do find that completely illogical. They can't be discriminated on the grounds of gender reassignment, and be compared to a woman. Because they're not comparing like with like.

I too think this would absolutely get overturned on appeal. It's whether or not the NHS want it to be.

It's a changing room. You can't be indecently exposed in a place which is specifically built for you to get changed in.