Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room

422 replies

Clymene · 19/07/2022 16:55

I thought there was a thread on this but I can't find it. Maybe it was deleted? I shall choose my words very carefully.

The court found that the unnamed employee had been discriminated against because they were asked questions that a woman would not have been about whether they had been undressed in the communal women's changing area.

Judge Davies said: 'A concern about the woman's state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman.
'This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room.
'The Tribunal therefore concluded that [the manager] asked the questions because of a concern that the woman as a transgender woman might be in a state of undress in the female changing room.
There were also several serious allegations against several female co-workers but while the Trust accepts these incidents happened, no perpetrators were ever identified.

There were a number of other complaints but they were dismissed by the Court.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

I am sure I'm not alone in finding this story very disturbing.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Clymene · 22/07/2022 16:27

Because the judge has been thoroughly stonewalled @ScrollingLeaves

As evidenced by her use of the term cis women in her verdict

OP posts:
Jarnsaxa · 22/07/2022 16:55

I don't know if this comment is allowed, but it's something that's been bothering me all night.

I'm not saying that this is what happened as I wasn't there so can't possibly know.

But. IF the claimant made up the overheard conversation where two women suggested that the claimant could be a rapist and then went on to say that they would find a way to drive the claimant out.

That's establishing reasonable doubt isn't it?

So if in future a woman was to make an accusation, the overheard conversation could be used as part of a defence?

We all know how difficult it is to secure a conviction of rape.

This is pure speculation of course.

Also, someone upthread mentioned that working 16 hours or less is to avoid losing benefits, which is true.

But I'd like to also point out that the claimant applied for this job three months into lock down, when all the gyms/leisure centres and public toilets were closed.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 22/07/2022 19:27

@Jarnsaxa

That made my blood run cold, especially for the women (or was there more than one woman?) who was accused of having the conversation.

There’s a saying “accusations are admissions” about some types of people who have a flexible relationship with the truth. You may well be on to something and it is a truly chilling thought.

happydappy2 · 22/07/2022 19:55

Seems like there are grounds for appeal on this decision....

JellySaurus · 22/07/2022 20:33

Yes, it is chilling that the Trust decided to accept that the letter and the conversation happened, despite the fact that not only was there was no evidence of them happening, but the person claiming about them was inconsistent with claims and reports.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/07/2022 22:47

Clymene · Today 16:27
Because the judge has been thoroughly stonewalled @ScrollingLeaves

As evidenced by her use of the term cis women in her verdict

Yes, I saw that.
It is an outrage that a questionable word was used in a legal setting.

I wonder in that case why the NHS doesn’t appeal? Money? If the judgement isn’t shown up for being wrong, won’t managers just think they have to bow to any demands by trans women wanting to freely use women’s changing rooms, because it will seem like too much hassle and risk not to?

Motorina · 23/07/2022 00:35

But. IF the claimant made up the overheard conversation where two women suggested that the claimant could be a rapist and then went on to say that they would find a way to drive the claimant out.

That's establishing reasonable doubt isn't it?

Reasonable doubt isn't relevant here. That's the standard of proof in criminal courts. This is a civil case. Decisions are made on the basis of balance of probabilities (so which thing is more likely).

So if in future a woman was to make an accusation, the overheard conversation could be used as part of a defence?

No, an overheard comment could not be used as part of the defence in an unconnected criminal investigation. Even if this particular transwoman were to be accused of rape in the future, I can't see how that comment could form part of any defence.

Jarnsaxa · 23/07/2022 01:32

Motorina

it establishes a motive for a 'false' rape accusation.

The claimant was inviting themselves around to their female colleagues houses in the evening

at weekends. And I'll bet they only invited themselves to houses without any adult male humans present.

If they had successfully got themselves inside a woman's house and the unthinkable happened. They could then claim it was consensual and the accusation part of a conspiracy to get rid of them.

That was my thinking but then I do have a very active imagination.

NotTerfNorCis · 23/07/2022 04:29

The questioning came because there had been 'concern' among staff that the transgender woman was 'naked from the waist down' in the communal changing room and she had made a 'lighthearted' comment about being so hot at work she took her pants off

If this male person hadn't been claiming to be a woman, this behaviour would have raised major red flags.

blahblahblahspoons · 23/07/2022 09:16

ScrollingLeaves · 22/07/2022 22:47

Clymene · Today 16:27
Because the judge has been thoroughly stonewalled @ScrollingLeaves

As evidenced by her use of the term cis women in her verdict

Yes, I saw that.
It is an outrage that a questionable word was used in a legal setting.

I wonder in that case why the NHS doesn’t appeal? Money? If the judgement isn’t shown up for being wrong, won’t managers just think they have to bow to any demands by trans women wanting to freely use women’s changing rooms, because it will seem like too much hassle and risk not to?

If the NHS doesn't appeal they are pretty much saying they're fine with men flashing women and a hostile working environment for women.

Which given they have about 40,000 nursing vacancies which aren't filled seems stupid at best.

I personally know several qualified nurses who've recently quit the NHS - it's not a welcoming environment in terms of pay and shift work nor particularly family friendly. Why add 'sexual harassment is rewarded' to that and further encourage the 50% of the population they rely on to leave?

EnfysPreseli · 23/07/2022 11:26

I think the NHS may well be a bit conflicted about appealing, not just because of the cost. The circumstances resulting in this case wouldn't have occurred they weren't in the thrall of Stonewall and they are either completely captured or genuinely scared of the backlash if they think about the implications of this case rationally and appeal the decision. They made a complete hash of it from the start.

My OH made the point that payouts like this may be covered by insurance, so if that's the case they don't come out of a trust's own funds. Would insurers have something to say about the wider, long-term risks of not appealing?

No idea whether this is a red herring or not, but if relevant the same insurance companies probably provide similar cover to multiple NHS Trusts. Will they now be looking at whether to honour claims like this that are so obviously based on an incorrect application of the law, or will they refuse to pay up unless there's an appeal because it could lead to a number of similar claims in different trusts? They may even start looking at whether organisations that have HR policies that misinterpret the law are covered for damages arising from the deliberate application of those defective policies.

Windypants21 · 27/07/2022 04:45

As there is a male or female toilets or shower rooms, should there be transgender toilets or derivatives thereof ?

I am not being glib. Is this the way to go ?

TheCurrywurstPrion · 27/07/2022 05:26

As there is a male or female toilets or shower rooms, should there be transgender toilets or derivatives thereof ?

I am not being glib. Is this the way to go ?

There are also disabled toilets, so there is plenty of precedent for provision of toilets for different groups with differing needs. There is nothing glib about your suggestion. The problem is that men who claim they are women are very much against the idea and reject it every time it is suggested. They very much want to be in the women’s.

FannyCann · 27/07/2022 07:04

Hospital trans inclusion policies say staff who transition should use the changing room appropriate to their gender as soon as they start to transition. So this may be happening up and down the country.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/869787/response/2075170/attach/16/Transgender%20Staff%20Support%20Policy.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

FannyCann · 27/07/2022 07:07

They must be supported to do whatever they want to do.

Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room
guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2022 07:39

But when did we (they) decide that toilets were segregated by gender not sex?

Notmanybroadbeans · 27/07/2022 07:51

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2022 07:39

But when did we (they) decide that toilets were segregated by gender not sex?

Around the same time that we (they) decided that there was such a thing as gender, separate from sex. Convenient, that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2022 09:31

Around the same time that we (they) decided that there was such a thing as gender, separate from sex. Convenient, that.

This is exactly it. It's a sleight of hand.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 08/08/2022 11:08

Relevant considerations from a lawyer on the point several of us raised about relevant comparators.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4606676-new-blog-by-barrister-anya-palmer-for-legal-feminist?

TheBiologyStupid · 10/08/2022 13:51

I finally finished reading the judgement last night after starting it and getting distracted when it came out. In almost every instance where there was a conflict between the accounts of the Claimant and other witnesses the Tribunal found the Claimant's version of events to be less believable. The Tribunal wrote (para 21):

21. We begin with a general finding about the Claimant’s evidence. As we explain below, there is no dispute that the Claimant was subjected to transphobic abuse by unknown individuals early in her employment by the First Respondent [Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust]. After that, she was involved in both an investigation of those events and absence management and grievances relating to that. In these claims, not only does she complain about the original incidents, but also about very many of the things that happened to her afterwards, including the management of her absences and the conduct of her grievances.

She now identifies a whole range of things as gender reassignment discrimination or harassment, disability discrimination or harassment, harassment related to sex and/or victimisation. The Tribunal found that the Claimant had a tendency to misremember the detail of events, and in many respects the detail of her evidence or the questions she asked in cross-examination was not fully consistent with the contemporaneous documents. Furthermore, it appeared to the Tribunal that the Claimant’s recollection of events now was affected by her belief, with hindsight, that many of these events were discriminatory.

It's worth noting that the Trust, and therefore the Tribunal, accepted the Claimant's version of events about the "original incidents", although it was not independently verified. This continued to be the case despite her evidence (e.g. her allegations about the identity of the unseen people who had made verbal remarks about her) being undermined by witness testimony, which the Tribunal acknowledged.

The Claimant seems to have been a nightmare employee from before she was even appointed. Having successfully applied for a full time post (37.5 hours per week) she immediately tried to reduce her working week and never actually worked 37.5 hours in a single week during her entire employment by the Trust, as the Tribunal noted in paragraph 132.3:

132.3 [The Trust] did not have a PCP [Provision, Criterion or Practice] of requiring that the Claimant work 37.5 hours per week. On the contrary, despite applying for and accepting a 37.5 hours per week role, the Claimant never worked those hours and was never required to do so. A phased start was agreed with her initially, not for any disability-related reason, but because she had been out of the workplace for so long. After that, adjustments were made to her hours as set out in detail above. Eventually, her contract was formally changed.

The Claimant put me in mind someone, and then it dawned on me: the character Ignatius J Reilly in Johnson Kennedy Toole's excellent A Confederacy of Dunces - another "worker" whose unfortunate employers did their best to accommodate their capricious demands and unsuitability for employment, with disastrous consequences.

KittenKong · 10/08/2022 14:00

Love that book. I once missed my stop on the tube because I was reading it and squeaking (trying not to laugh).

CrowUpNorth · 10/08/2022 14:15

If it doesn't go to appeal at least it doesn't create a legal precedent as is. The judge was quite right to uphold the claim re the malicious letters and bullying, but don't see it the employment right place to determine where people should get changed - thats a different area of law surely (health and safety for a start).

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread