Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room

[Clymene]

I thought there was a thread on this but I can't find it. Maybe it was deleted? I shall choose my words very carefully.

The court found that the unnamed employee had been discriminated against because they were asked questions that a woman would not have been about whether they had been undressed in the communal women's changing area.

Judge Davies said: 'A concern about the woman's state of undress in the changing rooms was likely to be connected with the fact that she is a transgender woman.
'This was a communal changing room with a shower cubicle. It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room.
'The Tribunal therefore concluded that [the manager] asked the questions because of a concern that the woman as a transgender woman might be in a state of undress in the female changing room.
There were also several serious allegations against several female co-workers but while the Trust accepts these incidents happened, no perpetrators were ever identified.

There were a number of other complaints but they were dismissed by the Court.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11027471/Trans-NHS-worker-wins-discrimination-case-confronted-underwear.html

I am sure I'm not alone in finding this story very disturbing.

If the comments and note which the employee says happened actually happened then that’s unacceptable. However I got the impression the perpetrators were never identified, so an anonymous note and things said with no witnesses when the employee was behind a door and didn’t see the people who supposedly said it. So I’m not sure what the trust were supposed to do about that because they can’t take action against unknown people.

as for the exposed genitals issue. Well of course they wouldn’t ask a woman in a female changing rooms if she wears knickers, because female genitals wouldn’t be an issue. Male genitals would. What happened to single sex space provision which I thought was legally needed? What if the employees colleagues sue as well for the fact their employer did not provide single sex changing rooms. Would they win? Total mine field.

I probably am splitting hairs. But because the claimant dropped the claim against the specific women who were at first thought to have had the conversation,

I'm not talking about that improbable conversation.The judge never relied on it as evidence for anything.

If you read the judge's comments about the one complaint she upheld, she's using the fact the manager mentioned the dick being out in the women's changing rooms as evidence she discriminated.

Trans people's rights do not depend on the length of their employment at an institution nor whether they are part time or full time.

(also to be clear, the manager didn't mention the dick being out to the complainant. Or in an inappropriate way as gossip. She mentioned it as background information relevant to the meeting when interviewed about it.)

Yes let's do that.

Especially the women who hired the claimant and was then erroneously accused of transphobia.

Or the female "buddy" who was called outside work hours to support the claimant only to be another person accused of not being supportive enough.

Anybody reading the transcript could not possibly accept anything other than this person was given every possible level of support - imho above and beyond.

We're not talking about them @Hearach15. We're talking about their colleagues.

It's not a right to be able to use women's changing facilities when you're male. Nor is it a right to demand colleagues pretend they haven't noticed someone is male.

No I'm not but I have read a very interesting analysis of RMW's short book, “A practical guide to Transgender Law” (Law Brief Publishing, 2021) by Naomi Campbell who is an experienced employment and discrimination Barrister. I happen to prefer her analysis over RMW's. It's worth a read if you like to engage with the arguments on both sides of the debate...

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/

Do we really have males telling us and shaming us for not wanting to see penises in females single sex spaces? On a feminist board?

There is a very easy solution to all of this.

Hopefully employers are paying attention.

Or the other female colleague who devised a special training so that everyone would welcome their new trans colleague only to have it raised in the complaint that the training was inadequate and should have talked about trans suicide and hate crimes more.

Isn't is odd how there have been several transwomen in the news recently who have had their genitals out in a changing room though?
Why are the ACTUAL women not walking about with their genitals out? Go into any changing room or spa, you will not see a woman walking around exposed.

It DOESN'T MATTER that it's a changing room, don't you get that? NORMAL people don't want strangers looking at their genitals and make somewhat of an effort to remain covered.

I think there IS a reason why some transwomen might not follow this convention, but I'm not allowed to say it here.
See also - Wi Spa, Lia Thomas etc.

I'll ask you again.
What if a child is in a changing room? Is it acceptable for them to have to see cock in their private space?

What happens to safeguarding?
Why is it different for a transwomen to have her dick out, yet be frowned upon for any old bog standard male to wander into the changing room with his cock out?
What's the difference between the two and why?

Having read the decision, summary to the best of my recollection:

Complainant is hired full time.

Immediately asks to go part time as they have been off work for years, are transitioning, and have anxiety and depression.

Is allowed to go part time with plan made to phase into full time employment over some weeks.

Immediate training and memos sent to staff about TW and warning everyone not to ask questions or discriminate.

Tw complains training didn’t include suicide stats, reference to Stonewall champion or hate crimes stats

Before even starts work, asks questions about attendance policies and penalties.

TW still hired despite already asking about not coming to work

TW does not go full time on agreed upon schedule, asks for more weeks at part time and is allowed.

TW comes to work “shaking and crying” due to hate crimes including multiple allegations of arson

report says nothing about whether police corroborate arson claims or whether in news

Says they then find note in locker which they destroy and only report later.

Is given more time off.

Comes back to work. Says they overheard convo.

women in room at exact same time can’t corroborate.

TW accuses Filipina woman even though she has an accent and TW said it was two posh English voices.

This is not considered racist even though Filipina woman is accused and dragged to tribunal.

It was not Filipina woman.

TW gets more time off work.

TW comes back to work, says they got note on sanitary napkin bag

Workplace questions virtually every woman.

women all shocked and all point out training and how they are good allies

TW says was discriminatory because first woman told asked for handwriting assuming everyone would be asked

Other team does investigation not knowing first woman said that, decide not to ask for handwriting as it would piss everyone off and accomplish nothing

TW given month off on medical note because of bullying. Has not even worked more than a couple of dozen days at that point.

TW harasses staff repeatedly throughout all this about pace of investigation. It is covid and they are variously in charge of all cleaning services, all staffing absences and replacement, etc.

TW gets another month off.

TW told during this that policy is mandatory attendance meeting. Told repeatedly is not punitive but supportive.

TW keeps complaining meeting is punitive.

Multiple emails sent on this matter. At least 3 HR people involved reassuring TW

TW put on half pay as never comes to work

TW asks for salary advance

TW given info about applying for supportive funds

TW says they want to come back to work then. Transfer is granted to another site

Meeting takes place about attendance, is not punitive

TW has series of baseless complaints about how expecting people to come to work is transphobic and ableist. Lots of detailed descriptions which boil down to Hr people going out of way during covid to accommodate as TW emails multiple times per week with demands and complaints

none of these complaints upheld

at various times Tw who never comes to work threatens to resign and everyone falls over selves begging TW to stay

TW transfers to other site. Is assigned a woman as a work buddy. Is allowed to still stay part time

TW asks woman buddy for things like advice on makeup. Messages women including supervisors asking to come over to their homes on weekends and evenings because is struggling. Tells women about self harm.

Women respond like typical women and are kind about all this and bend over backwards

report acknowledges this is bad boundaries

TW keeps leaving work early

TW keeps telling people has diarrhea and goes home multiple times

Women concerned about TW health given constantly leaving work and talking about diarrhea

TW tells woman supervisor is so hot underwear is wet

Woman isn’t in charge of absence so tells supervisor. Makes contemporaneous notes of convo

supervisor in charge of attendance also makes notes

puts incriminating exclamation marks by underwear and gesture of wringing out with hands

exclamation marks now transphobic

TW misses more work

TW told will have to attend another attendance meeting

TW refuses. Goes into crowded area in front of patients and starts screaming

oh I forgot, TW also told other women was going to take NHS to cleaners. Women reported this during investigation

TW called back into office

woman supervisor briefly gets fed up, says “oh pick your dummy up.”

Woman supervisor immediately apologizes

women must be saintly after months of vexatious complaints, constant demands on time, having to cover TW shifts as never at work, it’s covid.

TW says woman never apologized but evidence she did

TW told that is unprofessional to yell and scream and threaten to sue in front of patients

Later meeting held w TW, woman apologizes again and also in email

woman obv getting fed up, point out what more do you want she said sorry a million times and wasn’t discriminatory in first place

another meeting held as TW not at work, leaving early, yelling in front of patients, made weird comment about underwear, always talking about diarrhea

TW allowed friend in meeting
friend corroborates questions about underwear not sexual or invasive

Woman who asked questions says was concerned about health given unusual wet underwear

TW also allegedly seen in change room without underwear. Woman running meeting reasonably confused as to why so many underwear issues

is ok for TW to invite self over to women’s houses and talk about self harm; not ok for women to be like “what’s up w underwear thing.”

This is found discriminatory

TW transfers to yet another site, still part time

TW allowed to not do work for which they are hired

this is during a pandemic

TW resigns

TW sues

This was from memory so may have missed some stuff or slightly out of sequence. You get the gist.

@Hearach15

Trans people's rights do not depend on the length of their employment at an institution nor whether they are part time or full time.

Agreed.

However trans rights do not trump legal sex exemptions - as much as Stonewall might wish otherwise.

Yours is a red herring push back.

Have you read the findings?

The claimant does not come out of this well, despite significant support being provided.

Hence my comment that it's a Pyrrhic victory that does nothing at all to promote trans rights and equal employment opportunities to which they should be entitled.

👏

It did not seem to the Tribunal likely that there would have been a concern about a cisgender (sic, my comment) woman in a state of undress while changing in such a changing room. 152.5

That is an amazing sentence. I'm sure there would be concern on a few levels if women had their naked male genitals on view in the women's changing room? Jeepers, you'd feel like changing in the broom cupboard if this were commonplace another colleague had said the day before that the Claimant had been in the changing room “naked from the waist down”. 150.2

It's astonishing actually how much they bent over backwards to support this person despite the inappropriate behaviour and the appalling attendance record. I wonder if so much leeway would be given to a non trans employee.?

A woman would have been fired outright.

Great summary of the case. Unbelievable that they won.

Getting changed in a changing room is not voyeurism or exhibitionism.

It is when you’re a biologically male person in a changing room meant for biologically female people.

Especially if you’re exposing your male genitalia to the female people there.

Socially sanctioned sex offending. Bloody brilliant.

Also if someone had left me a nasty anonymous note at work I wouldn’t destroy it. I’d be taking it straight to my manager, seems a bit odd.

Walling around a women's changing room with your knob out is exactly that, unless you are using some hitherto unknown or arcane definition of exhibitionism?

Having male genitalia visible outside the agreed changing cubicle in a female single sex space can most definitely be considered as a deliberate act.

Great summary, Misstache, thank you.

Shocking. This is what happens when you enable this madness.

women must be saintly after months of vexatious complaints, constant demands on time, having to cover TW shifts as never at work, it’s covid.

And this is a recurrent thread we see over and over. Bio male trans people in this kind of situation, going off this and other things I’ve heard, can do pretty much whatever they like and everyone goes out of their way to accommodate them. Talk about bending over backwards.

But women, the women who are the ones putting up with this dreadful, unprofessional behaviour, picking up the slack, going above and beyond to try to make things work for the trans individual, and having inroads made into their free time as well - they are supposed to just keep on giving and giving and giving. Putting up with whatever. And with a smile and a cheery demeanour to boot.

And if they act like actual human beings, instead of service humans, once in a while - the horror, the endless apologies necessitated, the dreadfulness of being a woman who dared to show that she was fed up of this circus.

It’s so crap. All these women trying so hard to appease this one individual whose total contribution was to make everybody else’s life harder from the sound of it.

How do we get to women like this and tell them they DON’T always have to “be kind”, at their own expense? Imagine if there were feminists going into these workplaces and doing consciousness raising for women instead of Stonewall etc type “diversity” training. Imagine that.

How things go for working class women employed in cooking/cleaning services

Woman applies for full time job

Woman faithfully attends job for years. Always on time. Often stays late. Takes extra shifts or changed shifts when asked without complaining

Woman approaches supervisor. Asks if shift can be adjusted as has child/elder care issue

Woman told you were hired to do a job. There’s a team of people here depending on you. We can’t shuffle thing around just for you.

Woman mysteriously starts getting negative performance reviews

Woman denied promotion/fired/transferred to bad Department/shifts cur

Woman complains

Woman told has bad performance reviews, nothing to be done

union declines representation

woman has no reference after working for years

I've heard about tw finding it difficult to get work - I think India Willoughby may have said something along the lines of offers of work drying up once trans status is disclosed. Anyway, if this case is anything to go by I am not in the least surprised.

Not read the judgement yet but it's shocking that male genitals can be on display in a female changing room - NHS-sanctioned visual sexual assault. If they keep this up they'll have a huge number of legal cases from women heading their way.

As to the wet knicker thing, I am sure I read a while back that one of the many tw misconceptions about women is that we are walking around in a permanent state of sexual arousal, and so wet knickers. But who ever discusses how wet their knicks are with colleagues ffs?