Single-sex lavatories to be mandatory in all new public buildings

[ChristinaXYZ]

I really like the phrase “forced sharing” - I think we should use it more often as it sums up the lack of consent in shared facilities - unlike the neutral sounding 'gender neutral' .

Anyway, good news - I think this is building something that was initially announced by Robert Jenrick last year but got a bit lost after his demotion:

"New office buildings, schools, hospitals and entertainment venues must have separate male and female lavatories, ministers will declare this week, in a move to rein in the “forced sharing” of gender-neutral facilities.

The Telegraph understands that the Government will formally announce that it is acting to prevent non-residential buildings from being built solely with “universal” lavatories. The move will involve changes to building regulations and planning guidance.

The plans, being spearheaded by Kemi Badenoch, the equalities minister, were quietly approved by ministers last month after Mrs Badenoch was warned that some children were avoiding using lavatories at school because they only had access to gender-neutral facilities.

Mrs Badenoch has insisted that it is both legal and “important” to provide single-sex spaces for men and women."

If we could replace Boris with Kemi I'd be a very happy woman.

read more

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/02/single-sex-lavatories-mandatory-new-public-buildings - Telegraph has excelled itself with coverage this last week or so.

It’s just so disingenuous.

Yup. It's as if they don't understand the difference between a single-occupant, lockable cubicle and having to walk past a row of men standing at the urinal to get to a cubicle. It's about not having to share private space with men.

@RoyalCorgi

Yes, that’s right. Also if you’re a man and you need to have a wee, you don’t want to be getting your genitals out in front of female people. Including young girls. It’s indecent, and the only people who can’t see that aren’t people I want to share bathrooms with.

They tend to have one or two enclosed separate toilets so it wouldn't make much difference

Dinoteeth, not all swimming pools have the space for mixed sex changing villages. Some have a combination but then the single occupancy stalls aren't open, for example during swimming lessons.

Things aren't always feasible or possible and is it really to much to demand as a society male people respect female people and stay out of single sex facilities meant for the opposite sex?

One of the things I find most despicable about gender ideology and trans demands is the message it gives that women don't deserve respect at all. And if women protest they are the 'uncool' pearl clutchers and dinosaurs, to be ignored and laughed at. Gender ideology enforces the idea women are lower humans and any male who says they are women need to be applauded for being so brave in stepping down the ladder. Patriarchy on steroids

This is a very good point, Tasteful. It took time, in the nineteenth century, for women to gain public toilets — before that, they could only go out for as long as their bladder allowed. But once achieved, that right was never questioned.

Until very recently, when it has been suddenly challenged and is now being withdrawn.

Most people oppose this, if asked. But most have not been asked and don’t realise single-sex rights are being abolished without any change in the law.

This new ruling will be a big help, as long as it is followed. Big thank-you to Kemi Badenoch and Robert Jenrick.

(And how I long for the day when I can praise Labour politicians again.)

It took time, in the nineteenth century, for women to gain public toilets — before that, they could only go out for as long as their bladder allowed. But once achieved, that right was never questioned.

OT, there's a good talk by town planner Dr Clara Greed about the provision of public toilets and the phenomenon known as "bladder leash," or being constrained in where you go by the availability of adequate facilities.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

More here by putting this into a search engine: site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights bladder leash

Totally. Different. Trains and planes have one cubicle 😸 sometimes they have two opposite each other. The ambient noise also makes it very difficult to hear what's going on inside.

Not the same as a bloke using a flimsy partitioned stall right next to a woman or girl using a flimsily partitioned stall in a quiet building.

Some optimists might have said that about the Tories in 1997, but here we are. The descent into sleaze and scandal is eerily reminiscent of the dying days of the Tories' 18-year stint in government that started with Thatcher and fizzled out under Major. A new dawn, we thought! Nope. New Labour did many good things but were very far from perfect, and after the economic crash back the Tories came.

That last paragraph is right on the money. Very well expressed, @sanluca!

Just to add, we know transmen are not really regarded as men because Parliament specifically legislated to stop them from inheriting titles passing down the male line; they can't join the Masons or many other useful networking organisations with male-only membership; they mostly hit the headlines for becoming pregnant and giving birth; they are (I believe) rarely put in male prisons for their own safety (of course, there are probably vanishingly low numbers of transmen in prison, given how tiny the numbers of female prisoners are compared to male prisoners); they are welcome to compete in male sport but for obvious reasons mostly choose to stay in female sport and not take testosterone. Meanwhile, they are berated by transwomen for having male privilege if they try to speak up on reproductive rights or similar.

As you know, train and plane toilets are fully enclosed and the doors are in view of everyone nearby. From that point of view, women are in less danger than in other unisex toilets.

But as others have noted, men still vandalise train toilets, masturbate on the seats and basin and urinate on the floor, etc. So I don’t drink and I try to use the station loos only. Harder to hold out on a long flight, but there’s probably less risk of men masturbating etc as they would so easily be identified.

So this Crusade-remembering, tragically immortal version of Young Ones Rik thinks that toilets on trains are mind broadening.

…

What do we have to do round here to get a better class of opponent?

Maybe you should have coherent arguments.

Are the issues that women have to use men's facilities, that gender neutral toilets are inadequate in construction, or that you are fixated on trans people using women-only facilities?

Why is anyone so keen on gender neutral toilets anyway? What’s the big deal about women wanting a space for themselves? How does it even affect you?

Yes I travel by train/plane/coach etc, I would object if a man came into the single person loo though. And yes, they're often not very nice on trains.

Establishing the social norm that women have a right to their own spaces does in fact do quite a lot to stop perverts who want to invade those spaces... the perverts have got bold lately because the social norm has been eroded.

I agree.

@antifascist Most women limit fluid intake when travelling by train to avoid using the train facilities. Many opt to use the single sex facilities on platforms instead.

Airplanes are safer to use as only one person can be using the toilet and it is in close proximity to other passengers/flight attendants.

I certainly have no issue with gender neutral toilets in small businesses but when there is space for more than one there should be single and gender neutral toilets offered.

Did you read @LooksLikeADuck posts, can you really not see why single facilities divided by sex are preferred where clothing is being removed.

It all follows from the one big central lie that if a person says 'I identify as ...' they literally become that thing. Except if we're talking about race, ethnicity, disability, or anything that requires any objective proof that you have the criteria for membership. But obviously sex doesn't fall into that last group, so we're fine. Any male person can say 'I identify as a woman' and they actually are a woman. Amazing stuff. So excluding them from women's facilities, services, scholarships, women-only shortlists, women's officer posts etc etc is just as bad as excluding any other group of women would be - black women, lesbians, disabled women, you get the idea.

Uppity women saying 'No' is hateful because it makes the male-bodied women sad. (Oddly, it's also sad because it makes some of the male-bodied, both men and women, hateful.)

The only positive about sharing toilet facilities is I can accompany my primary school DSs into the toilet and keep them safe. For that I am grateful.

Well the arguments must be pretty coherent given that more and more people and organisations are listening to, and acting on them.

I really hope so. Our govt dept is attempting to force sharing on staff at a new premises being built at the moment.

In a meeting to discuss the plans with staff about a third of the questions were about the gender neutral toilets, mostly negative views. There will be no single sex provision at all anywhere in the building, not even public areas.

I hope Kemi's guidance reaches them in time - there are a lot of ppl unhappy about it; I suspect the shared 'corridor' and odours may be the main concerns but i haven't yet canvassed for opinion widely.

Maybe you should have coherent arguments.

Why is it so important to you? Why are you desperate for men and women to share toilets when most women would prefer them to be single-sex?

That was in response to earlier post from developer/architect working on a govt building.

This would almost be funny, if it wasn't so sad. You can't even see it.

Women don't need 'coherent arguments'.

The answer is no.

Get used to it.

@antifascist the issue is; if you withdraw the social convention that men dont go in to womens loos/changing rooms you will end up with those spaces becoming unsafe for women, who will then be forced to self exculde from whatever service, space in society that was previously available.

Does that explain it for you? do I need to put it in simpler language?
Or is it the concept that women deserve equality on their own terms that is perplexing you?

Maybe you should have coherent arguments

You go first

Unless 'trains' is your idea of a coherent argument, which would explain a lot