I'm male, gay and I don't get it

[NotMushroomInEre]

So, I'm here to learn. I tried to name change, but I can't. I am male and gay - no kids. I class myself as someone who supports trans people, but I equally support women. My intention isn't be to be divisive, although, I think this could be, which is really sad tbh.

For me, transwomen competing in sports that are for biological women is not acceptable. Science dictates the reason for my opinion and there is nothing more to say really.

Women have been oppressed for generations, and even after fighting for the right to vote, and gaining 'equality', women are still oppressed. I can't stand a system that would take women's spaces away and be ok with it.

I have female friends who would abhor what I've just said, and I don't understand it?

Please help me.

You're talking about system which is used to enable people at all levels to complete. Like a golf handicap.

And we already have it. We have weight categories and age categories. In order to include more people in sport.

The two sex categories allow all females the chance to compete. And you want to remove that to allow men, who already have a category, to compete in some else's category.

Women really aren't fully human to some people are they? With their own set of physical characteristics and abilities.

This may come as a surprise, but some people want to watch and support outstanding female athletes, at the peak of their fitness and the top of their game. Celebrating their determination, hard work and wonderful physical prowess.

Not artificially impaired, mediocre males who already have a category of their own.

Women are not a bloody service. To be offered up to a handful of males as a means of shoehorning them into a sports category they don't belong to, but demand validation from.

We are real, you know. Not just some tool for men to make use of.

Jeez.

Plus you can't change sex and it's unhelpful to let convention try and tell us that you can. You can change how you present in gendered terms - whatever that means to an individual - and if you have surgery and take medications with worrying side effects, you can change a few of your external secondary sexual characteristics. That's all. We should, I think, use the language of 'identify as a transwoman/man' not 'change sex' as that obscures the fact that a transwoman (for example) is and always will be biologically male. When we obscure that fact we set the scene for you being harassed for not wanting to have sex with a female person.

OP to answer your original question, you are gender critical. The position you outlined is a GC one. I don't know if the people screaming at you were gay but IMHPO stonewall has weaponised people's experiences of homophobia and managed to convince them that trans issues are in any way similar. The trauma they've understandably experienced, I think, makes it hard for some people to see what is really going on as they are tied into the rhetoric of transphobia. Sadly they are supporting their own oppression as I believe GI is a very homophobic position.

If people are screaming at you then they're not really friends surely? That's the bottom line.

For me there is no such concept as gender. We are born as male or female, we have a sexuality and we have a personality.

I have yet to read or hear any explanation of gender than doesn’t rely on gender stereotypes or pseudo religious “I just knew in my soul” explanations.

So to me the harm is:

• vulnerable children and adults having harmful and drastic medical procedures when helping their to accept and explore their sexuality or personality which isn’t conforming to step types would be the right help. It’s dangerous.


• men who use the trans umbrella to get access to women and children


• biological facts being treated as fictional

I have absolutely no issue with healthy adults choosing the life that makes them happy. I of course support protections so no one is mistreated at work or otherwise.

Of course I want women only spaces to remain so and also to have proper provisions for trans people.

But I think primarily the people being harmed are trans identifying people themselves especially vulnerable young adults and children.

Lots of people parrot the right words at others. They don’t necessarily really mean those words but they know they’re the right words to say to keep them ‘on the right side’.

Javid tinkering with the GRA quite so determinedly must be giving the likes of Mermaids, GIRES and Stonewall palpitations.

Whatever is emerging, Dr Cass is clearly concerned enough to get him into swift action.

Sorry, wrong thread!

This may have come up in the convo already, but a fairly reasonable take would be to say that you support trans competitors in sport, as long as fairness is maintained. If (as has happened) a competitor has gone from average county-level standard, to Olympic-level simply by switching the sex/gender category they compete at, you can't also claim there's been no inherent advantage carried over. Bluntly, fairness has gone out of the window at that point. Sporting bodies exist to ensure the safety and fairness of the sport they govern (or else why do they bother with weight categories in combat sports, weightlifting or rowing, or rush through rule changes whenever someone works out an advantageous tactic that spoils the spectacle).

Now if the person you are arguing with doesn't seem to care that fairness is taking a back seat, ask why they care so little about women's sport? There have been big strides lately in moving women's sport towards the levels of interest men's sports enjoy (equalization of pay in tennis / same number of events at Olympics / The Hundred in Cricket / women's 6 nations on telly / women's football world cup and so on) - there is still much to be done, but since trans competitors are almost exclusively a 'women's sport' issue (not many trans-men compete in the men's events), then ensuring fair competition for trans women is just another of the challenges to overcome. Currently, the 'lower your testosterone for a bit' model is plainly not sufficient, and needs more work.

Can anyone explain why OP being gay makes any difference to anything... shrugs

@kagerou i agree with you as a lifelong lefty liberal and socialist.

and the trans women and trans men I have enjoyed knowing as friends throughout my life agreed with this pov too.

whats Happening at present in our social climate is just madness and to me feels like a way to suppress both women and the gay community all in one - it’s a right wing political goldmine and younger people are being lead down this rabbit hole.

I have female friends who would abhor what I've just said, and I don't understand it?

Please help me.

Here's a thought. YOU ask your friends why they screamed at you. We don't know them - how would we know their thought processes. You have the debate with them. You make the effort.

Your not asking for help understanding them - because you don't need help given you can talk directly with them. You're asking for women here to do all the emotional work explaining how things are for you.

YOU do the work. There's enough threads on here - YOU read them, think about them and discuss with your friends.

Your assumption that women will do your work for you is a part of the problem that is the patriarchy. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

Go well.

I completely agree. This is the logical common sense approach.
I think these ideas may come from naivety and lack of grasp of the wider issues. They are more likely good people with a misplaced passion.
Probably women who have never experienced real sexism themselves or people they care about. Probably had sheltered lives and always been around nice people. They will change their minds after the damage has been done sadly 😕

I saw this on you tube last night - but I think it's the same phenomenon.

Basally some environmentalists worked out a deal with company for their orange waste that benefitted both - rival company got upset ran a PR campaign against project - public opinion and courts went against project it was stopped despite environmentalists and scientist speaking in favour.

The actual situation was obscured - went back 16 years later project was widely successful - the science had been sound but ignored as public opinion was mobilised against project.

I totally agree with you. I was discussing this with another woman the other day who thought the same and we said perhaps there should be a third group. There's probably a lot more women who think like that than you realise, its just not seen as the right thing to think by others and so people make out they're OK with it when they're not.
Just watch after I've posted this, there will be posters quoting me saying that I'm totally wrong but it's just my opinion.

Your female friends, or any of your friends, need to work it out for themselves. Slowly but surely sunlight is being shone on the worst excesses of this gender woo nonsense and people will have to decide whether they are on the side of people who want rainbow dildo monkeys in libraries (it's an actual thing) or women discussing women's safety. Whether they want to stand up for the Karen White/Barbie Kardashian's of this world or incarcerated abused women. Whether they want shiny "terf cleaner" badges for nurses or nurses that believe you when you say you were raped by a man masquerading as a woman on your ward.
The Cass Report will be a big game changer.
Keir Starmer needs to get off the fence, stop pretending weasel words to different audiences will do or he will lose the next election. To the most incompetent corrupt third rate actual wankers in government that we have now.

It is sad. The only person I can speak to about any of this, and have them agree with me, is my male gay best friend. Literally everyone else in my life has 'drunk the Kool Aid' and believes TWAW. My friend says that all of the gay dating/hook up sites have been totally taken over, that transexuals are all that anyone on there is looking for now. Really pisses him off.

Saddest for me is that includes my own partner, a bisexual man. Just last weekend we had yet another argument over this issue. What depresses me the most though is this is a man with a biological science degree!

With friends, I just mentally or literally (if possible) walk away if this subject comes up. If anyone asked me directly if I believed TWAW, I'd replied 'no, and I'm not willing to discuss it'.

I wonder if it’s a generational thing.

Im 64, I grew up in a world of racism, homophobia, misogyny and cross dressers.

Society has come a long way. But as a women I am still aware of the inherent misogyny. I’m sure others experience racism and homophobia. My ex husband is only just beginning to realise jokes about gay men are no longer funny.

When I think of a trans women, my go to mental image if I’m honest is what used to be a cross dresser ie a man who gets his kinks from wearing female clothes. The trans women I am aware of mostly fit this image, and are TWAW because it allows them to achieve something ie getting into womens prisons etc.

Two things I believe. Germaine Greer said women have no idea how much men hate women (apologies if I’ve got that wrong). Also, from the police. You cannot believe the lengths some men will go to to achieve their sexual ambitions eg pedophiles, perverts etc.

However I believe younger women have a different mindset. They see the world differently and have no idea how far we’ve come. I don’t think younger women and girls are so jaundiced by misogyny. They know it exists, but they don’t see it inherent in the men they know.

When they think of trans women, their go to are a completely different set of people. In my ignorance I don’t know the names, but they are widespread on social media, and if I met one in a bathroom I would definitely think they were female.

We tend to live in a bubble these days. Our news and social media feeds, give us more of what what we already like and believe.

So in essence, young people see trans women as men with genuine body dysphoria who are just trying to live their best life. Whereas older women like me are more jaundiced by experience, and know things are not always what they seem.

I haven’t mentioned trans men. I think that’s a whole different kettle of fish. Nor the belief that some Mens Rights activist are supporting trans women, just to stir up trouble.

I am gender critical. But if someone with genuine dysphoria has gone through “bottom surgery” and has to daily dilate their “vagina” - you know what, I’ll happily call them a woman. But the ones who stick on a bad wig just so they can invade womens spaces - no way.

An excellent article. Thank you.

People are scared to be the odd one out and be screamed at, like you were. So it's easier to be trendy and go along with it and not understand the serious ramifications of this endless erasure and de-wombification of everything so that being a woman isn't a safe and protected thing anymore (I mean, like it ever was, but to protect something and provide equal opportunities, you have to define it and keep some boundaries from homogenising into every other category)

I had to sit through a recent "LGBTQ+ awareness" webinar at work for Pride Month.

It was run by a trans man and backed by Stonewall.

There was a very obvious lack of the L in all the presentation and examples given of "fearless LGBTQ+ pioneers".

The whole thing was heavily "trans weighted".

I have given feedback to HR that had I been a lesbian woman I'd have been extremely offended by my lack of representation in the awareness campaign.

It's absolutely shocking what is happening.