I'm male, gay and I don't get it

[NotMushroomInEre]

So, I'm here to learn. I tried to name change, but I can't. I am male and gay - no kids. I class myself as someone who supports trans people, but I equally support women. My intention isn't be to be divisive, although, I think this could be, which is really sad tbh.

For me, transwomen competing in sports that are for biological women is not acceptable. Science dictates the reason for my opinion and there is nothing more to say really.

Women have been oppressed for generations, and even after fighting for the right to vote, and gaining 'equality', women are still oppressed. I can't stand a system that would take women's spaces away and be ok with it.

I have female friends who would abhor what I've just said, and I don't understand it?

Please help me.

Some women will just never take women's side. They are the jurors who refuse to convict rapists, the women who opposed the suffragettes, the women who protest at venues where we hold meetings now.

I have no idea why they do this- wanting to keep in with their peer group maybe. I wish they would have a long hard think about how their lives might be changed for the worse if trans activists win.

Vichy feminists.

it is a phrase that is commonly used, wrongly, by people on the Internet who don't really understand it tbh.

It's frequently used wrongly. It is however a thing which exists, and it's a large reason why "progressive" people are more concerned with trans rights than those of women and girls. Because it's socially more acceptable.

Them screaming at you - that sounds fear based - meaning they know at some level what happens to women that publicly agree with you and don’t even want to be adjacent to someone suggesting it.

I also think that they might be so socialised into being a ‘good’ and ‘kind’ and ‘liberal’ and ‘right’ person that any suggestion that puts a chink in their purposely unexamined beliefs needs to be shot down as quickly as possible, they don’t want to even think ‘bad’ thoughts.

Yes, that's why people get so very angry, usually. They are happy to maintain a bubble of cognitive dissonance, squashing any niggling doubts (often by dismissing the source) and if you challenge that, they are angry at you, because they think either someone will tar them with the same terrible brush or that they might not be able to convince people that they believe it any more. Either way, they have as pp said seen what happens to people, especially women, and they don't want to be considered a bigot by peers.

I think the phrase 'born in the wrong body' has had a lot of influence particularly to women that I know. I think it's taken as fact and explains it all for some people, when they are not actually aware of gender dysphoria, social contagion, internet pressure or AGP.

Some women haven't joined up the dots yet with the huge mysogyny of the movement and the appalling regressiveness of gender stereotypes.

Some will simply want to seize onto the next progressive cause as another way to shout down so-called right wingers and get virtue signal points or whatever the phrase is.

The best excuse for TW competing in women's sport that I was told was 'well, there will always be someone faster or stronger'.
This is a woman who trained and competed to quite a high national level herself.

Mind you, she's also totally bought into the rainbow lanyards and pronouns in your email signature at work and defends her position as being a trans ally is easier for everyone and #be kind.

This makes me so sad. And it’s not even acknowledged by anyone that all this is massively sexist and homophobic!

Yes, that's why people get so very angry, usually. They are happy to maintain a bubble of cognitive dissonance, squashing any niggling doubts (often by dismissing the source) and if you challenge that,

It's a common phenomenon when people have bought into one way of thinking but the evidence is against them. They'll deny the evidence of their own eyes until "the emperor is naked" becomes accepted truth. Then they'll deny they ever thought otherwise.

I suspect our brains have developed to do this because otherwise our beliefs would be flip flopping all over the place with each new bit of information.

I have been asking myself the same question OP, I couldn’t understand why people (in particular some women) are like this. It s as if you cannot reason with them.

I came to the conclusion that these people either a) lack critical thinking skills, and are stupid even to swallow the gender woo woo, b) are so self absorbed in their own needs for attention seeking, virtue signalling, indulging in their guilt/saviour complex, or luxury beliefs, that they are happy to throw women under the bus, regardless of whether they believe in it or thought through it at all, or c) hateful misogynists, who know Exactly what they are doing, and are revelling in being in a cultural climate where they could do this in plain sight, and still be seen as the ‘good guy’.

in short, for me, they are either stupid, narcissistic or misogynistic. The first two serve as the useful idiots of the third.

This.

Also OP, do your friends think you should include transmen in your dating pool?

Do they not believe that your sexual orientation is based on sex?

Because denying homosexuality doesn't look progressive. Nor something ones 'friends' should do.

It's one thing 'progressive' people chucking women under the bus - same old same old. But gay men?

Ask them.

The sports issue is particularly insane because it serves to highlight the differences between the sexes very clearly. In the sports where males have been notably dominating women/taking their places so far - swimming, cycling, skateboarding, weightlifting, boxing - transmen have not been doing the same to men’s sports in reverse, despite the demographic for trans men being younger on average. The reason why not is obvious, it’s because they’re female and have a disadvantage in most sports compared to males.

As a feminist, that’s unacceptable to me - if it doesn’t work equally both ways then it’s sex discrimination. On top of the fact that no one should be making categories on the basis of what someone just announces about themselves when that is so clearly falsifiable. We don’t just announce our age, weight, level of disability etc and expect entry to a sporting category on that basis.

I do think the conviction that transwomen are women (and vice versa) has become like a religious dogma. It’s not based on evidence and there is no logical argument for it but it’s blasphemy to question it and people can jostle their way to higher moral ground by denouncing anyone who does. I do think virtue-signalling is a thing - 10 minutes on Twitter reveals it’s everywhere and not just on this issue. It doesn’t mean everyone is doing it and of course people can be genuinely good and kind, but it definitely is being used to grab a morally “safe” position, avoid attack and gain praise and cachet.

I also agree with PPs that socialisation of women has a lot to do with this being kind/protecting TW from nasty meanies etc. and unconsciously always putting males first, even as you might try to convince yourself a TW isn’t male. There’s also been a long media campaign of presenting TW as lovely, girly, fashiony, glam ladies who love to be “one of the girls” and are poor victims of being born in the wrong body and are in some sense genuinely women in men’s bodies. IMO that concept falls apart very fast when you dig into it and we also know that TW continue to offend at male rates and offending patterns, and that a large subset see “being a woman” in a fetishistic way (hence posting videos of themselves wanking in women’s changing rooms, toilets etc). And of course as it’s self-declared, any predatory man can simply lie and say “I’m a woman, let me in”. And most TW don’t have genital surgery which many people don’t realise.

I think even the most accommodating woman might find herself feeling alarmed if she ended up on a hospital ward or women-only holiday and found she was sleeping next to a large, intact male who was clearly turned on by the experience. But as a PP said for many women it’s theoretical (so far at least) and we’re socialised to put ourselves last and give males what they want.

I agree, I also support trans rights but not at the expense of women giving up their safe spaces or sport. The position you are taking is quite reasonable. I feel for trans friends who have just been living quietly for years and are now experiencing a backlash from people who think that they are a part of this ‘trans women are women’ crowd, who set out to bully and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them.

@NotMushroomInEre i agree with you totally. I support trans people's right to live their lives and be happy in themselves.

However I think sport and certain women's spaces need to be separate for specific reasons

Personally i don't understand the big deal about things like toilets, changing rooms etc where people are just going to perform a quick and specific function - if that turns into a safeguarding issue then that is because that person is a sexual offender and they should be arrested based on that - not based on their gender identity.

For things like women's support groups for women who have trauma - i think there should be third spaces for trans women

In prisons and hospitals i think trans people should be treated as theur chosen gender unless they have a history of abuse or there is other safeguarding issues

I do not believe in self ID - I think having to live as that gender for a certain amount of time and starting some sort of medical treatment is a good safe indicator that some one can be treated as that gender

I believe that trans women are trans women - not trans women are women. There is a difference but it doesn't mean that trans women are somehow lesser people. Trans women and women have been through different journeys and both are valid humans deserving respect

Oh and i don't think lesbians or anyone else should be considered transphobic for not dating a trans person

• i believe that any sort of medical transition needs careful thought , medical supervision and therapy as I do think that the current trend is seeing a lot of young people, especially gay people or those unhappy with their bodies being pushed into thinking they are trans and rushed into irreversible medical choices

I think this discussion brings out horrible tendencies in a lot of people-I don’t get why in sports they can’t introduce a system that adds or takes away time based on a number of factors and in everyday life they can’t introduce another space somehow. People talking about putting womens rights over a trans person, I see trans people as being a minority that is underrepresented and pushed out and talked about the way we said we wouldn’t do to anyone.

How exactly are they underrepresented?

Keep speaking up OP. The more gay guys who do the better.

They can't change their sex, no one can. They can say they are a different gender. Nothing they do will make them a different sex.
Otherwise I agree entirely that transwomen should never be allowed to compete in sports with women.

OP

Maybe these studies will help you to understand the pressure some people feel to be wholly seen as supporting trans people, despite what may seem to defy logic.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

The above study came about from this one below:

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/18/what-does-woke-mean-britons

And this one below just confirms the pressure is immense in that generation.

www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/06/23/you-cant-say-that-new-polling-shows-students-want-more-controls-on-free-expression/

The pressure to conform and not be ostracised is very real for many. We see it frequently here with posters who simply cannot provide any evidence to substantiate their views. They simply double down with emotional manipulation to attempt to get their message across.

Exactly this.

Do your female friends also believe that you, as a gay man, should happily accept a romantic relationship with a transman, and if not then you're a hateful bigot? So many of these trans flag wavers miss the whole point that homosexuality is Same Sex Attraction, NOT same gender identity (which is just a bunch of stereotypes at the end of the day)!

Do they know that there are plenty of transwomen who don't believe TWAW! Debbie Hayton, Rose of Dawn for example. Caitlin Jenner doesn't believe transwomen should be allowed in women's sports.

We segregate sports by sex class, not gender identity class. It's really that simple. If we allow trans athletes in women's sports then why segregate at all? Open up all events to everyone, and see how many medals women win.

It isn't ok to just change your sex before you go into prison.....they aren't trans people though...

No biological man should be in female prisons. Never, EVER!! Not in any circumstances whatsoever!

There, fixed it for you.

Your friends are experiencing cognitive dissonance because of your questions. They believe "trans women are women" and they also can see that males competing in women's sport is unfair. The contradiction between those statements is psychologically uncomfortable so they lash out at you to make it go away

www.google.com/amp/s/www.betterup.com/blog/cognitive-dissonance%3fhs_amp=true

Hopefully you have planted a seed and they will come back to a more rational position with you. That's what usually happens (I've experienced this a lot)

if that turns into a safeguarding issue then that is because that person is a sexual offender and they should be arrested based on that - not based on their gender identity.

Because we have such a great track record of convicting sexual offences in this country.