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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon on Daily Show tonight

80 replies

Misstache · 30/06/2022 14:20

This is going to be infuriating and hilarious in equal parts. I feel like you ladies will have hilarious commentary; hoping for a watch thread!

OP posts:
nepeta · 01/07/2022 17:17

But if we swallowed Veronica Ivy's arguments, there would then be absolutely no reason to segregate any sports by sex. That is not what Ivy wants (she wants validation for herself), but that is the logical conclusion we would have to arrive at:

There is no reason at all to segregate sports on the basis of some abstract inner feminine feelings, because it is not someone's gender identity (for those who possess this abstract belief) which gives them an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

The contempt towards the female body and the people who have one is astonishingly widespread in this debate.

Annonnimoouse42 · 01/07/2022 17:45

yeah, that's not helpful. Tall, big women exist

PearlClutch · 01/07/2022 18:03

Agree, OhSister. Trevor had to do the required penance/catechism/hailmarys before making some reasonable points. And he did okay, really. It is excellent sunlight.

"I'm made of biological matter, I'm not a cyborg. And my legal ID and documents say female. Therefore I'm a biological female."

So, what is a transman before they get new documents?

IcakethereforeIam · 01/07/2022 18:04

Yeah, wonder what 'Ronnie would do if 'men' were allowed to compete against the 'women'.

PearlClutch · 01/07/2022 18:04

I mean, actually, wtf do cyborgs have to do with fucking anything, Veronica? That first clause is nonsensical. All humans are bloody human. So all you're actually saying is:

"my legal ID and documents say female. Therefore I'm a biological female."

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 01/07/2022 18:25

nepeta · 01/07/2022 17:17

But if we swallowed Veronica Ivy's arguments, there would then be absolutely no reason to segregate any sports by sex. That is not what Ivy wants (she wants validation for herself), but that is the logical conclusion we would have to arrive at:

There is no reason at all to segregate sports on the basis of some abstract inner feminine feelings, because it is not someone's gender identity (for those who possess this abstract belief) which gives them an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

The contempt towards the female body and the people who have one is astonishingly widespread in this debate.

I wouldn't assume ivys motivation. It could be the removal of all womens sports, for all we know.

I'm surprised noah is 6 foot. He looks tiny in stills I saw.

samsalmon · 01/07/2022 19:10

If VI were tasked to write a new definition of ‘woman’ for the dictionary, what would they write? Words need agreed definitions, we collect these in dictionaries so we can all refer to them and have a shared understanding, so what would it be?

LaughingPriest · 01/07/2022 19:44

because who gets singled out for scrutiny is based on white woman's conceptions of femininity.

Huh.
So - should anyone's conception of femininity have anything to do with 'what a woman is' or not? I've been arguing NO very whole-heartedly for a long time.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 01/07/2022 19:55

"and I’m pretty sure I’m made of biological stuff. so I’m a biological female as well."

Horse shit.

And a perfect example of the word soup and mental gymnastics they use to try to convince themselves that they are women.
Not content with trans women, not content even with woman, now coming for "biological woman".

HORSE SHIT.

GoodWeatherforDucks · 01/07/2022 20:20

From my reading and listening over the last few days, I feel that Ivy is a certain type of person who would be very difficult to get along with. No idea that other people could see something in a different way, very literal, very convinced of the primacy of his needs and rather vindictive. So it doesn’t surprise me that he thinks it’s OK to do what he’s been doing. I mean, coming on The Daily Show and being interviewed quite respectfully by Trevor Noah and getting some approving clapping is pretty darn validating…

PearlClutch · 01/07/2022 20:39

The studio audience must have been very gratifying. (Anyone who has ever been in a studio audience may have a slightly different view of rapturous applause).

So the subsequent comments on social media must have come as a bit of a shock.

Not sure who put Veronica on a high chair, but - well played.

ninetynineAu · 01/07/2022 21:51

Oh, the cyclepath is speaking Gender dialect again. There ought to be subtitles for that.

Translate: VI- "Facts don't care about your feelings, my friend .." =

RM - "My feelings don't care about your facts. Waaaah.." .

ControversialOpening · 01/07/2022 22:06

My chair was really high. 😂😂😂😂Sure, that’s why you loom and lurk. Shout out to the secret terf set dresser for cranking the chair up. Good job, lady!

VI also claimed in that notorious photo where VI is 8 times the size of the female cyclists that “they were slouching and VI was just sitting up really straight.”

What about the time VI was being pushed into starting position and the poor bloke pushing VI couldn't support VI's bulk and dropped VI, while in the background VI's competitor was pushed effortlessly into place? Was it just a camera angle that made that happen?

CaveMum · 01/07/2022 22:30

If you read the comments on the Daily Show Facebook page I’d say most people saw through VI.

fb.watch/d-8ej-Kt5u/

Dreikanter · 02/07/2022 00:02

Also Ivy's arguments for why they are a biological female are the most insane, sophistical bullshit I've heard in a long time and it's shocking that an ex philosophy professor even said this. "I'm made of biological matter, I'm not a cyborg. And my legal ID and documents say female. Therefore I'm a biological female." Jesus Christ. How can people go along with this crap?

It’s the Willoughby defence. In Willoughby’s case it’s usually accompanied by a passport snapshot showing F in the sex column.

As if a legal fiction confers some magical clownfishing ability to actually change sex.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 02/07/2022 00:31

It just looks to me as if ivys enjoying getting everyone to lie. Everyone knows ivys male, if they didn't the 'controversy' wouldn't make any sense.

It's weird that these comedy/political shows in America are willing to question and mock every government decision, apart from the one that allows men to redefine woman.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 02/07/2022 00:50

CaveMum · 01/07/2022 22:30

If you read the comments on the Daily Show Facebook page I’d say most people saw through VI.

fb.watch/d-8ej-Kt5u/

One very vocal poster in the comments section going on about Caster Semenya (God knows why) being a "cis-woman" and "biologically female" with high testosterone.
Where the hell does this "fact" come from and why do they keep wheeling out this athlete and others with DSDs to justify MEN in women's sports?
It is known that Semenya has 5ARD which is a DSD of genetic males, XY chromosomes and male gonads.
Why does this person (Ivy) talk about intersex people at ALL?

Could it be that they're talking unadulterated bollocks?

Ivy is a biological male with no DSD.
They are not a biological female despite their inane witterings to the contrary, not a woman, not now and not ever.
And I don't give a flying fuck what their documents say. It just proves whoever issues them is as deluded as they are.

Toseland · 02/07/2022 01:01

What is this bit near the end?

>> Trevor: it seems like we'll end up in a cul-de-sac. the transgenders are coming for you.

>> oh, we are.

( laughter )

( applause )

>> Trevor: be careful what you say.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 02/07/2022 01:37

"Just to add, that while Caster Semenya is intersex, there are people out there are currently seen as cis-women with naturally hightened testosterone levels due to for example POCS. And that's not completely rare. These women would also be classified "female" with regards to sports divisions.
The problem is, that the classification in simply male and female is too oversimplified. "

Comment is from the comments section in the link provided by CaveMum.

There we are. Even women with PCOS now are just "currently seen as cis" and "classified as female".
Who knew?
I'm actually a hulking great bloke!!

These people just get more fucking insulting by the day. And can't even get the name of the disease right either.

Pocodaku · 02/07/2022 01:56

BoredofthisCrap7 · 02/07/2022 01:37

"Just to add, that while Caster Semenya is intersex, there are people out there are currently seen as cis-women with naturally hightened testosterone levels due to for example POCS. And that's not completely rare. These women would also be classified "female" with regards to sports divisions.
The problem is, that the classification in simply male and female is too oversimplified. "

Comment is from the comments section in the link provided by CaveMum.

There we are. Even women with PCOS now are just "currently seen as cis" and "classified as female".
Who knew?
I'm actually a hulking great bloke!!

These people just get more fucking insulting by the day. And can't even get the name of the disease right either.

Yes it’s utterly nonsensical and cynical! Legal fictions, obfuscating language and feelings trump everything! Males with low testosterone are not females. A tall female isn’t male. And they keep dragging DSDs into it though people with DSDs have been repeatedly saying they have medical conditions, not ‘gender identities’. And in any case, people are males with DSDs or females with DSDs. There is no 3rd sex or gamete, ffs.

SolasAnla · 02/07/2022 07:34

PearlClutch · 01/07/2022 18:04

I mean, actually, wtf do cyborgs have to do with fucking anything, Veronica? That first clause is nonsensical. All humans are bloody human. So all you're actually saying is:

"my legal ID and documents say female. Therefore I'm a biological female."

The cyboryb comment is the hint that the softwear is in the wrong hardware. Ladybrain in a male body.

Its an ethics debate in IT, cyborgs are to do with an emerging argument on who benefits long term if society buys into the idea that human's get to choose their identity and can modify their bodies to match their choice.
So than transgender ideology serves as a bridge to other radical body modifications.
The bridge is forcing social change so who you claim to be is more important than what others can see you to be.

Add in AI and when would a learning computer system become independant / consciousness. Not the human looking Android but the little stuff. How many people started with phone which took voice command now own a household computer which is always on and listening and "learning".

Then add the idea of mapping the human brains electronic pulses neural pathways etc to create duplicate of personality, think the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie The 6th Day.
So its where the possibilities meet the ethics of if it can be created v should it be created. Syfi movies are sometimes based around ethical question in current science and the future potential harm if it goes wrong.

Next, our brains create electric current and by using wiring which is sensitive enough to detect this, tech is created replacement limbs. So a brain thought creates a current which the tech reads and translates it into a finger twitch on an artificial hand. Or with a broken spine the twitch bypasses the spine to moves a leg and foot and/or it powers the assisting external suport frame so someone with a broken spine could walk again. Again once this is developed why limit it to the disability aids market why should this not be used on a healthy body or use it to prolong active aging with older people.

Its also how tech companies have created Wii games, Sims, now want to create virtual offices and other life simulations with great CGI where the user is asked to immerse themselves is using glasses, earmuffs etc. to block out the material reality.

Its looking forward to where tech can go. The bridge theory is that people have to first buy in to the identity over biology that using the ideology of transgender created a special social class who can step outside the normal social rules but who must be protected while doing. So once that social norm is achieved the younger generations will be upsold tech and the forced social change would be duplicated. And by pure coincidence the big winners would mainly be the nerdy white older rich males in the industry.
Its sometimes referred to as transhumanism.

LaughingPriest · 02/07/2022 07:56

I don't think it's as complex even as that. The very weak point is the dishonest pretending not to know that by "biological woman" people mean physically female. "I'm human, so I'm biological, I'm a woman, therefore I'm a biological woman" is like when a 6yo says "he's my friend who is a boy, so he's my boyfriend" or whatever.

PearlClutch · 02/07/2022 10:05

Could it be that they're talking unadulterated bollocks?

Adulterated or not, it's certainly bollocks.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 02/07/2022 10:06

Still scouring the comments:

"most real trans girls are not typical males but naturally very feminine"

bwah hah hah hah

PearlClutch · 02/07/2022 10:21

Toseland · 02/07/2022 01:01

What is this bit near the end?

>> Trevor: it seems like we'll end up in a cul-de-sac. the transgenders are coming for you.

>> oh, we are.

( laughter )

( applause )

>> Trevor: be careful what you say.

It looks like the transcript has missed a bit out, or I've inadvertently deleted when copying over, sorry.

I will listen to the clip and transcribe by hand when everyone in the house STOPS MAKING SO MUCH FUCKING NOISE.