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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New guidance for reporters on trans issues

33 replies

Watermonster · 28/06/2022 12:13

In only the BBC would use them!!!

'New guidelines for reporters recommend not using pronouns in court cases with trans-identified defendants; and using "claims to be transgender" rather than unequivocally stating male defendants are women or transwomen' .
twitter.com/AmyB_writer/status/1541683979421630468
University www.uclan.ac.uk/news/trans-identified-defendants

OP posts:
Olderbadger1 · 28/06/2022 12:58

This is great. So clear and comprehensive. AND from a university no less. How do we get it adopted I wonder?

BoreOfWhabylon · 28/06/2022 13:00

Excellent news!

PurpleWisteria · 28/06/2022 13:04

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WarriorN · 28/06/2022 13:06

Excellent!

IloveHolby · 28/06/2022 13:08

l feel that the tide is turning at last...

girlpancake · 28/06/2022 13:11

Olderbadger1 · 28/06/2022 12:58

This is great. So clear and comprehensive. AND from a university no less. How do we get it adopted I wonder?

Getting it adopted by IPSO would be the next big step. Without that, it's only recommendations. But it is a step forward.

BootsAndRoots · 28/06/2022 13:17

The adoption of female names and pronouns by male sex offenders is another form of abuse and control.

GCRich · 28/06/2022 13:23

"claims to be transgender" is in my humble opinion so essential.

Of all of the the disgustingly bad journalistic practices that lead to massive real world harms, presenting claims as facts is the worst I think. And it is not just on this issue, it is on everything, not least our PM. If Boris Johnson says "I care about the poor and am bringing in policies to support the most vulnerable in society" then it needs to be reported that Boris Johnson, a proven liar, has claimed to care about the poor and had said - with no evidence to back it up - that he is bringing in policies to support the most vulnerable.

I genuinely believe that one of the big causes of really poor critical thinking skills is that when the unverifiable claims of people are reported they are not reported accurately - ie as unverifiable claims.

GCRich · 28/06/2022 13:29

And to be clear - this applies to everyone. I have no solid definition of trans, and I certainly don;t have a meaningful set of criteria to judge someone's transness against. It literally makes no more sense to say "xxxx is trans" because he said he is, than it does to say "yyyy is a beedleflipsickle" because she says she is. No one knows what either word means, and even if we did we would not have the criteria to verify the claim, so it has to go down on record as an unverified claim.

Circumferences · 28/06/2022 14:12

Does this actually have any clout though?

I can't imagine Leeds or Brighton university agreeing with this.

Watermonster · 28/06/2022 14:45

@Circumferences Yes - Ipsos may follow the courts.
Until recently the Judges Bench Book said even rape victims had to refer to their attacker as the wrong sex. However although this has been changed (victims no longer have to lie in court under oath), all the rest of the court still do.
So if any journalists are reading, please advise? How does IPSOS decide?

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/06/2022 15:29

The trans groups are wedged right into the most powerful aspects of our institutions. They're still very white male led so the influencers of these lobby groups fit right in- see sport governing bodies for an example of how looking after your mates gets prioritised rather than ensuring fairness, equality and safety for women.
The judges have their secret trans training - the self interested authors of the bench book were allowed to implement telling lies under oath in order to protect the wishes of the numerous sex offenders claiming to be trans and on trial for sex offences. It's only the outrage of people seeing paedophiles repeatedly getting lighter sentences that is starting to get things changed.
Hopefully one of the major press outlets will take this on and refuse to call one of the sex offenders "she" in their reporting and let's watch that get played out in public.

girlpancake · 28/06/2022 15:31

Watermonster · 28/06/2022 14:45

@Circumferences Yes - Ipsos may follow the courts.
Until recently the Judges Bench Book said even rape victims had to refer to their attacker as the wrong sex. However although this has been changed (victims no longer have to lie in court under oath), all the rest of the court still do.
So if any journalists are reading, please advise? How does IPSOS decide?

There was a thread on mumsnet earlier when Fair Play for Women published the results of their complaints. https://fairplayforwomen.com/ipso-failing-women-with-transgender-rules/

GCMM · 28/06/2022 16:55

Those are fantastic guidelines! Well done to the authors and the university.

Birdsweepsin · 28/06/2022 16:59

GCRich · 28/06/2022 13:29

And to be clear - this applies to everyone. I have no solid definition of trans, and I certainly don;t have a meaningful set of criteria to judge someone's transness against. It literally makes no more sense to say "xxxx is trans" because he said he is, than it does to say "yyyy is a beedleflipsickle" because she says she is. No one knows what either word means, and even if we did we would not have the criteria to verify the claim, so it has to go down on record as an unverified claim.

Did you just mis-beedleflipsickle me?

TheBiologyStupid · 28/06/2022 18:00

Strange days when plain common sense resurfacing seems exciting - but nevertheless, this is brilliant news and not before time. Let's hope the approach is widely adopted.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/06/2022 18:26

I'm almost tempted to register on Twitter just to add my Like.

This needs to be picked up and acted on by IPSO. Their current guidelines on trans reporting are contradictory to their general guidelines on not being misleading. These suggestions seem to allow for accurate reporting of the facts with no privilege or discrimination.

DisforDarkChocolate · 28/06/2022 18:43

I work with UCLan, I will let them know I support this.

LaughingPriest · 29/06/2022 14:30

The full report is a good collection of press examples.
I do think so many terms are so poorly defined that using them indiscriminately just doesn't convey truth, it obfuscates.

"A major reason for confusion is the lack of a clear legal definition of the terms “trans” or “transgender”; or a generally agreed public understanding of the term. A selection are summarised below but they are contradictory. This problem was noted in the Equality and Human Rights Commission response to the debate on conversion therapy"
...
"In other words, to be transgender does not require a person to look different to their biological sex, or have hormone treatment or surgery. It is about the way a person feels."

So many people - even people on FWR - don't seem to have grasped this - constantly referencing 'wearing lippy' or 'putting on a dress'. That is not what makes someone trans. I would be glad to get away from this view/assumption.

The interesting bit to me is this:
"Trans-identified Defendants: Is it accurate to call them trans?
The lack of a clear definition of “trans” means it is possible for anyone to identify as transgender.
Advocates of self-ID (a policy that would give this legal status) would state that people are the gender they identify as. But in court, identifying as trans carries incentives which make the situation less clear. There are long-standing concerns amongst psychiatrists and others working in the criminal justice system that criminals cynically and falsely claim to be trans."

and
"Some male offenders are falsely claiming to be transgender. There is no way for a journalist to establish whether someone making that claim is genuinely transgender or not. This is partly due to conflicting definitions of transgender, and partly due to the practicalities of establishing the reality behind the claim. In these circumstances, it is important that the journalist makes clear this is a
claim, not an established fact"

One of the questions that TRAs never answer is - if you are whatever you say you are, are you stating there is no such thing as 'falsely claiming' to be trans? It appears that it is the declaration that defines you as trans. And completely ignores the possibility that someone might say something they do not believe to be true.

I think this is a point worth unpicking, as it's at odds with everything else assumed to be a definition of 'trans'. Surely there must be some criteria, otherwise it is literally a label. And if so, then we cannot say 'you are whatever you say you are'.

Watermonster · 02/07/2022 09:44

This guidance has now been withdrawn after objections from trans groups - telling the truth is transphobic.
pressgazette.co.uk/uclan-transphobic-accusation-guidelines/

OP posts:
mrshoho · 02/07/2022 09:54

Watermonster · 02/07/2022 09:44

This guidance has now been withdrawn after objections from trans groups - telling the truth is transphobic.
pressgazette.co.uk/uclan-transphobic-accusation-guidelines/

Sorry to hear this but still believe some good will come. Discussion and questioning the ridiculousness of current reporting shines light. Common sense will return dome day.

Hied · 02/07/2022 10:09

Watermonster · 02/07/2022 09:44

This guidance has now been withdrawn after objections from trans groups - telling the truth is transphobic.
pressgazette.co.uk/uclan-transphobic-accusation-guidelines/

Oh no. How disappointing! But hopefully the door is slightly open now!

PearlClutch · 02/07/2022 11:33

Oh, I was so excited when I started reading the thread! Only to be deflated by the end.

Rollercoaster.

Let's hope this is the start of the ship trying to alter its course.

ChristinaXYZ · 02/07/2022 12:00

Oh what a shame!

AlisonDonut · 02/07/2022 12:02

How completely unprecedented and unexpected.

I'm shook.