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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another go woke go broke - McCains

412 replies

Birdsweepsin · 28/06/2022 09:41

twitter.com/McCainUKIE/status/1541406087324246019?s=20&t=pug-ahmQqiD5mqyyLzLdAw

Who the hell in adland thinks insulting or mocking the people who buy your products is a winning strategy?

OP posts:
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16
Conflictedunicorn · 28/06/2022 17:35

MrsWooster · 28/06/2022 15:57

Leftonread

your argument is based on misunderstanding at best

So if their target audience is women, why are they showing a man in woman face? If their target audience was black peoples, would they show someone in blackface? If not, why not?

LaPufalina · 28/06/2022 17:41

Clymene · 28/06/2022 17:12

The juxtaposition of these two posts! 

From @Leftonread

It is an ad that appeared as social content, not on TV. If you're letting your impressionable child on instagram you've got bigger things to worry about than a man in drag.

Immediately following @LaPufalina

I had this pop up on a kids' video on YouTube today (video my 5yo was watching, supervised by me, was aimed at very young children).

So contrary to @Leftonread's scolding us about being shit mothers, this is an ad appearing on kids YouTube videos. Which are aimed at err children.

Not enough facepalms in the world really

It was Harlow and Popcorn, the mini pony celebrities. 5yo knows she isn't allowed on "grown up YouTube" without me in the room. My 3yo isn't allowed on it full stop.

IsAnybodyListening · 28/06/2022 17:43

Just submitted a complaint to ASA. McCains are now Mcfucked. Won't ever buy any of their products again.

Braggiography · 28/06/2022 17:45

Can someone explain what it means to 'drive a bus through' a pair of 'knockers'?

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 17:51

In any other arena, this would be seen as offensive 70s style Benny Hill sexist crap. But because its a drag queen it's progressive and hilarious?

Make it make sense!

I have to say, I didn't think there was much problem when I first started watching even though I was a bit Hmmas drag queens do seem to be the advertising tool du jour.

But then it got to the bit about 'big knockers' and creating a caricature of a woman out of meat. As part of an advert for a product the brand know millions of women buy.

Are we supposed to be cheering on this bullshit? Fuck right off.

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 17:58

Christ, the ratio on it as well! 😂

I also seem to have an ad for McCains hash browns under this post as well...!

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:19

What part of breasts are sexual?

pretty sure having breasts isn’t exclusive to women either.

the professionally offended are out in force today screaming ‘think of the CHILDREN’ about an piece of social content their kids will only see if they let them… as women we have much, much bigger things to be fighting against right now.

Drag is honestly not the problem.

KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 28/06/2022 18:32

I decided to show this to my teens to find out whether this is me being an old gimmer or it really isn’t appropriate.

their take was lacy bits and big knockers isn’t right for a kids product and “wtf were they thinking.”

lacy bits and big knockers are worthy of a 1970s circuit comedian, not an ad for kids food in the 2020s.

Braggiography · 28/06/2022 18:34

Indeed, this is why knockerfeeding is supported by the WHO, and the NHS has women in for knocker screening, breasts are completely non-sexual and the 'innuendo' is in no way sexual.

And look at us all here 'screaming'.

Nothing to see here. Move on by lest you want to be called a 'pearl clutcher', or 'prude', or 'hysterical', or any of the other names flung at women who name sexism and grooming. It's never changed.

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:35

Conflictedunicorn · 28/06/2022 17:35

So if their target audience is women, why are they showing a man in woman face? If their target audience was black peoples, would they show someone in blackface? If not, why not?

Glad you asked. It’s Because blackface has its origins in white performers blacking up to ‘punch down’ at a marginalised community. Women are no more marginalised than gay men. A drag performer dressing up as a character butch lesbian would be different, as would a white drag performer doing a character of a black woman. In those cases, that would be punching down. That’s the difference.

Drag has its roots in a marginalised subculture of a marginalised community that grew from a rebellion against the idea that the only was to be a man was to subscribe to traditional masculinity. It’s punching up, not down. That’s the difference between ‘woman face’ (give me strength) and Blackface. Drag in its truest form is about men in dresses - deliberately over the top, unbelievable and nonconformist. It’s not about pretending to be a woman and then mocking her, it’s about taking the piss out of the IDEA of femininity and all the things we’re told a woman should be. It’s about ridiculing society’s expectations of both genders by completely over the top characturism and at its heart, drag is self expression. Drag at its heart is ‘this is what you expect of women and it’s ridiculous, and so is what you expect of men’. Drag race and the mainstreaming of drag culture has caused thst to be lost a fair bit and most of the drag community would actually agree it’s not a good thing that drag has become so mainstream. If you think drag is offensive it’s because you don’t understand drag, it’s history and it’s deeply ingrained commentary on society, frankly. If you don’t find it funny that’s a totally different thing.

For what it’s worth, I’m a female drag performer who dresses as a lumberjack and makes penis jokes for pin money, I have PCOS so I grow my own beard if I’m feeling particularly method.

EsmaCannonball · 28/06/2022 18:39

Something being part of gay culture doesn't grant it a pass for misogyny.

Speaking as someone who likes the odd Carry On film and who doesn't particularly mind old-school drag acts (you know, the ones who actually had an act and weren't all about the costume and 'Ooh, me knockers!') I still find this a really strange marketing decision. It's like something that could have starred Reg Varney 50 years ago.

Clymene · 28/06/2022 18:43

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:19

What part of breasts are sexual?

pretty sure having breasts isn’t exclusive to women either.

the professionally offended are out in force today screaming ‘think of the CHILDREN’ about an piece of social content their kids will only see if they let them… as women we have much, much bigger things to be fighting against right now.

Drag is honestly not the problem.

Not sexual at all!

I'm guessing you're too young to remember page 3 Hmm

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:43

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:19

What part of breasts are sexual?

pretty sure having breasts isn’t exclusive to women either.

the professionally offended are out in force today screaming ‘think of the CHILDREN’ about an piece of social content their kids will only see if they let them… as women we have much, much bigger things to be fighting against right now.

Drag is honestly not the problem.

Yes, I mean there is nothing sexual about drag queens is there? It's not like their entire shtick is based almost solely on sexual innuendo. And what's sexual about 'big knockers'? Nothing at all!

Much bigger things to be fighting against, so in the meantime we might as well sit back and cheer on as these men objectify and take the piss out of our bodies whilst also expecting us to buy their products - yay!!!

onmytodd78 · 28/06/2022 18:43

Women are no more marginalised than gay men

How ridiculous.

FemaleAndLearning · 28/06/2022 18:45

I had to listen twice because I thought I must have misheard the word knockers. God I've not heard anyone use that term for decades. It's not art, it's not an act, it's gross and sexist.

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:45

EsmaCannonball · 28/06/2022 18:39

Something being part of gay culture doesn't grant it a pass for misogyny.

Speaking as someone who likes the odd Carry On film and who doesn't particularly mind old-school drag acts (you know, the ones who actually had an act and weren't all about the costume and 'Ooh, me knockers!') I still find this a really strange marketing decision. It's like something that could have starred Reg Varney 50 years ago.

I actually agree a drag act is an odd choice here - I’m assuming it’s because of Bagga’s stage name and nothing else.

no one is saying it being part of gay culture excuses misogyny - drag isn’t misogynistic. It’s the diametric opposite. Drag is a commentary on society’s expectations of women which are deeply misogynistic.

The more mainstream drag becomes, the more that message is lost I think. If your only exposure to drag culture is drag race and twitter I can absolutely see how you could find it offensive though.

Ironically, Bagga is one of the many many good eggs.

Riverlee · 28/06/2022 18:46

I showed the advert to my dc (20) who said it was ‘weird’ and ‘interesting’. He also said it served its purpose as everyone is talking about it!

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:49

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:43

Yes, I mean there is nothing sexual about drag queens is there? It's not like their entire shtick is based almost solely on sexual innuendo. And what's sexual about 'big knockers'? Nothing at all!

Much bigger things to be fighting against, so in the meantime we might as well sit back and cheer on as these men objectify and take the piss out of our bodies whilst also expecting us to buy their products - yay!!!

The over the top innuendo is part of the social commentary - it’s ‘isn’t it stupid that this is how we think of women’ not ‘this is how we should think of women’.

Honestly at this point it’s like you want to be offended.

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:51

It’s not about pretending to be a woman and then mocking her, it’s about taking the piss out of the IDEA of femininity and all the things we’re told a woman should be.

Gaslighting bolleaux.

If this were actually the case then drag queens wouldn't use terms like 'fishy' to describe drag queens who 'pass' as women and wouldn't use drag queens names like 'Anna Bortion'.

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:52

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:51

It’s not about pretending to be a woman and then mocking her, it’s about taking the piss out of the IDEA of femininity and all the things we’re told a woman should be.

Gaslighting bolleaux.

If this were actually the case then drag queens wouldn't use terms like 'fishy' to describe drag queens who 'pass' as women and wouldn't use drag queens names like 'Anna Bortion'.

SOME drag performers do this, not all. You’re generalising massively there.

honeybushbunch · 28/06/2022 18:53

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 18:35

Glad you asked. It’s Because blackface has its origins in white performers blacking up to ‘punch down’ at a marginalised community. Women are no more marginalised than gay men. A drag performer dressing up as a character butch lesbian would be different, as would a white drag performer doing a character of a black woman. In those cases, that would be punching down. That’s the difference.

Drag has its roots in a marginalised subculture of a marginalised community that grew from a rebellion against the idea that the only was to be a man was to subscribe to traditional masculinity. It’s punching up, not down. That’s the difference between ‘woman face’ (give me strength) and Blackface. Drag in its truest form is about men in dresses - deliberately over the top, unbelievable and nonconformist. It’s not about pretending to be a woman and then mocking her, it’s about taking the piss out of the IDEA of femininity and all the things we’re told a woman should be. It’s about ridiculing society’s expectations of both genders by completely over the top characturism and at its heart, drag is self expression. Drag at its heart is ‘this is what you expect of women and it’s ridiculous, and so is what you expect of men’. Drag race and the mainstreaming of drag culture has caused thst to be lost a fair bit and most of the drag community would actually agree it’s not a good thing that drag has become so mainstream. If you think drag is offensive it’s because you don’t understand drag, it’s history and it’s deeply ingrained commentary on society, frankly. If you don’t find it funny that’s a totally different thing.

For what it’s worth, I’m a female drag performer who dresses as a lumberjack and makes penis jokes for pin money, I have PCOS so I grow my own beard if I’m feeling particularly method.

You should research the history of blackface minstrelsy and drag in the 19th and 20th century and you will find it has a longer and very complex history. “Female impersonators” were among the very first blackface performers, and blackface “mammies” with fake breasts (knockers, indeed) were some of the most popular of minstrelsy shows and parodic songs depicting female slaves.

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:55

The over the top innuendo is part of the social commentary - it’s ‘isn’t it stupid that this is how we think of women’ not ‘this is how we should think of women’.

Honestly at this point it’s like you want to be offended.

Why the fuck is it only ever women who aren't allowed to be offended by people who taking the piss out of them? Why is it only us who get told 'you are overreacting dear, you just don't understand the joke dear'.

Loads of women find drag offensive for the reasons stated on this thread, why don't you listen to them instead of just dismissing them? Would you do the same to other groups who tell you that they find something offensive?

honeybushbunch · 28/06/2022 19:04

You might think drag is a subversive gay practice @Leftonread , but that is only one very recent part of its history, and you can only read it as such by ignoring its much longer history as a misogynist and racist performance tradition.

It’s a shame that LGBT culture has such lack of historical perspective that it forgets where many things come from.

Lesbian feminists in the second half of the twentieth century largely rejected drag culture as part of a long history of misogynist portrayals of women.

Drag was also seen by many gay men for a very long time as a pejorative form of gay culture which played up to straight perceptions of gay men as effeminate, tasteless and crude — a sort of uncle Tomism if you will. Most gay and lesbian people in the 80s and 90s found it utterly cringe as well - a really old fashioned kind of parody of gay culture beloved by middle of the road straight audiences (Dame Edna etc).

It’s only in the last couple of decades that it’s been mainstreamed as some kind of “queer” celebratory culture. But its origins are actually in music hall, minstrel performances and variety shows: it didn’t start as part of gay liberation by any means.

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 19:05

ThickCutSteakChips · 28/06/2022 18:55

The over the top innuendo is part of the social commentary - it’s ‘isn’t it stupid that this is how we think of women’ not ‘this is how we should think of women’.

Honestly at this point it’s like you want to be offended.

Why the fuck is it only ever women who aren't allowed to be offended by people who taking the piss out of them? Why is it only us who get told 'you are overreacting dear, you just don't understand the joke dear'.

Loads of women find drag offensive for the reasons stated on this thread, why don't you listen to them instead of just dismissing them? Would you do the same to other groups who tell you that they find something offensive?

I’ve not dismissed anyone, in fact in my first post I reiterated absolutely everyone’s right to be offended at whatever they like (or don’t). I’m not telling anyone to calm down or be quiet - I’m outlining the view that drag isn’t designed to offend women and at its heart is actually about challenging gender stereotypes. Having a different opinion to you isn’t silencing you. We can all speak.

It’s not only women - I have had men approach me after gigs and tell me they found my set offensive. I have a bit where I parody a mediocre white guy which often causes issues for actual white men. It’s a bit that comments on getting promoted above your abilities because you have a penis and the usual argument I get is ‘not all white men are incompetent so your set is offending me’ - thing is, my set isn’t saying ‘all white men are incompetent’ and yet that’s what they read. Unlike here, I do actually tell them to piss off Grin

honeybushbunch · 28/06/2022 19:14

Leftonread · 28/06/2022 19:05

I’ve not dismissed anyone, in fact in my first post I reiterated absolutely everyone’s right to be offended at whatever they like (or don’t). I’m not telling anyone to calm down or be quiet - I’m outlining the view that drag isn’t designed to offend women and at its heart is actually about challenging gender stereotypes. Having a different opinion to you isn’t silencing you. We can all speak.

It’s not only women - I have had men approach me after gigs and tell me they found my set offensive. I have a bit where I parody a mediocre white guy which often causes issues for actual white men. It’s a bit that comments on getting promoted above your abilities because you have a penis and the usual argument I get is ‘not all white men are incompetent so your set is offending me’ - thing is, my set isn’t saying ‘all white men are incompetent’ and yet that’s what they read. Unlike here, I do actually tell them to piss off Grin

Except drag never was about challenging gender stereotypes at all, and you can only say that if you’re ignorant about where it comes from and also think gay culture started in about 2003 or get all your information from Twitter and YouTube.

Is Mrs Brown’s Boys about challenging gender stereotypes? What about the Pythons or the Two Ronnies when they dress up in drag? Still funny and subversive? Because both of those are far closer to the origins of drag and minstrelsy than Bagga Chipz or RuPaul are.

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