Another go woke go broke - McCains

[Birdsweepsin]

twitter.com/McCainUKIE/status/1541406087324246019?s=20&t=pug-ahmQqiD5mqyyLzLdAw

Who the hell in adland thinks insulting or mocking the people who buy your products is a winning strategy?

'Fishy' was used on Big Fat Quiz of the Year. You really can't get more mainstream than that. It was jarring watching the guests and audience laughing at the definition of fishy.

'Oh how hilarious! Women's vaginas stink of smelly fish!' (complete with a hand waft at the crotch) 🙄

Just to say I’m really sad and tired at women’s voices being not listened to.

Honestly it could make me cry that my daughter is growing up in a world where it’s still ‘ok’ for a man to make jokes about breasts.

It brings back horrors of having my bra strap ‘twanged’, having my tits grabbed in clubs, having ‘show us your tits’ shouted at me.

through a mainstream Lena’s it loses the context that makes it inoffensive.

Drag has always been a thoroughly middlebrow, mainstream kind of entertainment, though - that’s why it originated in pantomime, minstrelsy, music hall and variety performance! It was the one way gay culture could pull in straight audiences, and that was by deliberately being crude, vulgar, sexist and actually a bit homophobic. That’s what made it palatable to audiences at all. No-one thinks Bagga Chipz or RuPaul are predatory threats to their children: but the entire point of it is to be vulgar and sexually inappropriate; that’s the entire point of the acts (and was the point way before anyone saw it as a great focal point of gay subculture).

But those sexist innuendoes should have gone the way of Benny Hill (who LOVED a bit of drag: it was one of the most played up bits of his act - Google a few photos).

Many gay male drag performers of the past, like Danny La Rue in fact, were notoriously unhappy in the caricatured drag roles the entertainment industry of the time forced them into. One of the reasons that drag is not by any means universally loved by gay people — far from it.

Fishy is a really really old fashioned term and rarely used in the actual community nowadays. A number of queens have spoken out against its use publicly and the fact it was used in drag race was controversial even at the time both in and outside the community. This is another issue with the mainstreaming of drag - the tiny percentage of drag performers who get into the mainstream become the representatives for the entire community and they’re not always the best advocates.

attitude.co.uk/article/drag-sos-stars-cheddar-gorgeous-and-anna-phylactic-reveal-why-they-wont-use-the-term-fishy/22435/

My voice is female. I am a woman. We don’t speak with a single voice. We can disagree.

But then it’s very like the use of the word “queer”. Young people think it’s fabulous and liberating because they have never thought about or experienced where it came from. Those of us who had it shouted at us in the street by thugs don’t see it as all rainbow and benign.

Yep that’s exactly what I said above, I’m glad we’re having this debate. So I take care on bored you have a different view and a woman.

Sorry o should have made it clear, the women objecting to drag, for example drag story time.

Honestly I’m not trying to be antagonistic towards you, it’s helpful to hear your views. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts.

And it might not be as bad as Anna Bortion, but it’s no accident that “Bagga” is a deliberate pun on that most enduring of misogynist terms, the “old bag”. Still think he’s so pro women and nuanced?

So fishy is the old-fashioned term and now drag is much friendlier to women? Or now drag is inoffensive and mainstream?

What is it that makes drag subversive or challenging? Blokes in women's clothes? Like a stag party?

Big Fat Quiz of the Year (2019). An apology was made for the term being 'transphobic' rather than because It's offensive to women -

metro.co.uk/2019/12/28/vivienne-hits-back-criticised-using-word-fishy-big-fat-quiz-year-2019-11970023/

From the current Ru Paul Drag Race Fandom dictionary. States that drag queens take fishy as a compliment but 'non drag' women believe it to be an insult -
rupaulsdragrace.fandom.com/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_Dictionary#F

From the last few years -

www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a13716/rupaul-drag-race-terms-to-know/

www.thedailybeast.com/rupauls-drag-race-slang-tuck-sickening-and-more-drag-terms

I've only actually seen two articles where the term fishy is criticised. The one you linked above and one by a writer at Marie Claire.

Fwiw I have dragged up myself o cw or twice. It is very very different for a woman to dress male than it is for vice versa. Why is that? Why do drag kings get stick from queens, yet I've never seen or heard the reverse within the scene?

I’m not into drag, and whilst others are into the history it’s not really my thing

My main issue is when I see that advert it’s no different to all the other sexist comments women have to put up with

The outfit and hair doesn’t change the derogatory remarks it just means the ad agency and marketing person thought it was ok

I think it’s pretty poor generally

Agreed and actually your point reflects a small but growing shift in the focus of drag - there’s a lot more androgyny and generalised extreme ‘look’ queens in the community that are gradually becoming more mainstream. It’s morphing (as it always has) with the sensibilities of the day and feminist objections to drag has a lot to do with that I think. AFAB queens are also doing a roaring trade on social through makeup and the glow up phenomenon. There’s a significant cross over between the ‘new drag’ community and the makeup community online, and I think there’s a younger generation that would have in the past found a home in the drag community that through broader acceptance and visibility have found a home in the makeup community instead. It used to be that if you were a boy who wanted to wear make up but didn’t want to be a woman, you found acceptance as a drag queen. Now though there’s a community for you if you’re just a boy who likes doing make up and performing with other people who also like doing make up and performing.

Drag will change again and fall out of vogue and then back in as it always has, and there will always be die hard shock performers that delight in offending as there is in every branch of performance and entertainment. That’s not the community though, far far from it.

So how do we know which drag acts are subverting gender norms in an exciting dangerous queer celebratory sort of way; and which drag acts are just sexist old men parodying women because women are just such ghastly old objects of fun?

Here’s Benny Hill in drag, complete with saggy “knockers”, as a middle aged woman (arguably far less offensive than most current drag acts):

Where’s the magic button that tells us which is the fabulous glittery subversive drag, and which is just the sexist mocking of women b/c everyone knows old women are just such ridiculous old bags?

Those saying ‘I think it’s great!’ or ‘we should discuss this’ - don’t you wonder why women aren’t being listened to? Wonder why events and promos are carrying on regardless of the offence caused to women? Wonder why women in say a rape crisis centre is told that they have mens groups, trans groups but heaven forbid they have an all woman group?

Wonder why a mere sniff of ‘offence’ to sole very special people, and the sky falls down?

The scales are well and truly tipped - not in woman’s favour.

It’s different because a section of the drag community gatekeep drag for the gay male community.

From experience though as a 19 year old woman with no tits and a beard (as I was back then) the vast, vast majority of the drag community are totally welcoming of AFAB queens. I had one knob who used to take the piss a lot but another queen has a word on my behalf and it stopped very very quickly. Knob was a new queen, it’s funny how on the whole it’s the newer generation that are less accepting. You’d think it would be the other way.

for what it’s worth I have both a male and female set - I drag up as a woman too. My female set is much more about self acceptance though and a bit less fun. It’s only about half way through that I reveal I’m female and the whole thing is hinged off a comedy routine to do with being a man in a dress, which is how I felt when I was a 13 year old girl with PCOS, no tits and a better beard than my dad. You get a fair bit of ‘is it really drag if you’re really a woman’ but only ever online, those kinds of bigotry don’t translate irl.

(I’m also now wondering how much makeup I have to use to be a part of the “makeup community”. Does popping to Boots for the occasional bit of Clinique count, or is that merely being “makeup curious”? What happens if sometimes I like makeup and sometimes I don’t? Can I be demimakeup? So many questions…)

As people have said drag queen have existed for decades, they have been mainstream for decades, the fact that women are losing their rights isn't related to a few drag acts going mainstream.

A lot of drag queens are quite honest about being male, RuPaul has been accused of being transphobic, and even today we are transing drag queens (like Marsha P Johnson).

I’m not sure what you’re asking? Are you asking which drag you should enjoy and which you shouldn’t? Because that’s personal choice. It may be that you don’t enjoy any kind of drag and therefore wouldn’t watch it or engage with it, which is absolutely fine.

If you see a drag act from 50 years ago and think ‘blimey this is horribly offensive’ that’s ok, you don’t need to search YouTube and watch it.

My point about your clip would be that Benny Hill isn’t really a drag act is he? He’s a comedian that sometimes dresses up in womens clothing to do sketches that ridicule women. He has no ties to the drag community, never performed in a drag club or alongside other drag performers. It’s not really a representative example of drag culture at the time and as you point out, there are FAR worse examples of drag acts that ridicule women. They’re not representative either.

Sorry, the makeup community is a content creation community on YouTube and other platforms who do extreme makeup looks for internet clout - the bbc did a talent contest called Glow Up that’s just had its 3rd season all about this specific community.

So the answer to your question is if you’re regularly creating content about stage make up, you’re part of the makeup community. That’s probably the barrier to entry.

Howard Snape

Haven’t found an email address, but Howard Snape seems to be the man in charge if you want to complain to the company directly.

I see Mumsnetters have been all
Over the Twitter page 🤣

I was a girl with 32ff breasts and a very hour glass figure. The sexual innuendos, groping and worse was relentless. I blame the culture or parody around women’s bodies, it was so mainstream, that I was the unreasonable one for not being able to take it in good humour. “Show us your knockers!”, “you don’t get many of those to the pound!” “Give is a tit wank!” I was a child!
I get that not everyone will have the same experience, but far too many women and girls have, and they are saying ‘it is not ok’.
It may very well be empowering for a gay man to get paid lots of money by a chip company, but I am more concerned with the 10 year old , early developing girls, who will go to school tomorrow to hear people ‘joking’ about her ‘knockers!’ Break down all the stereotypes that you want but keep kids out of it!

Where is the ad being shown? Surely not on telly before the watershed? Is it a social media campaign?

Ru Pul did some Olympic back-pedalling after the 2018 interview he did where he said any trans queen who had changed their body surgically wouldn’t be admitted to drag race - his argument was that drag was for men with penises and the drag community was in uproar about it.

the UK drag race had Victoria Scone (AFAB), so the issue was largely put to bed after that. Again this is the problem with drag race, it presents Ru Paul as the voice of the drag community and he’s very very far from that.

most of the ex UK contestants completely distanced themselves and have continued to do so. It’s actually a round about argument for why there should be other routes to the mainstream for drag performers..