Roe vs Wade / gun laws

[placewherewebelong]

I have been reading with horror as the case has unfolded. I personally struggle to see how people can claim to be pro life then subject children to be potential orphans, or in care, or to live with parents who didn't want them, or as the product of a rape, and be so PLEASED with themselves. It horrifies me.

That aside -

why on earth is a country that still has gun laws where children are shot dead and people are encouraged to carry arms deciding that the biggest problem is stopping women from making their own choice about their own child and their own body?

I don't understand :'(

Boxowine

It’s not satisfactory to me at all. It’s terribly sad that you feel so oppressed. But still, the law appears to be - as set out in the Constitution and interpreted by the SC who were put in place by an elected government, that guns are legal. So even if you were not oppressed, you would still need to change the Constitution or persuade the SC - no?

Anyway, you are clearly upset so I will step back.

In Oklahoma and Idaho abortion at any stage has been banned with the exception of the health of the mother or documented rape/incest. These exceptions would require that the woman's request be boarded either by medical authorities or the police (If police officers are punching women in the face at abortion rallies, what guarantee will there be that they won't interfere with the process?).

Is this what you mean by compromise? If we're polite enough will they maybe still allow us to have dead fetuses removed from our bodies before we die?

‘Is this what you mean by compromise? If we're polite enough will they maybe still allow us to have dead fetuses removed from our bodies before we die?’

Compromise means listening to people who disagree with you and trying for as many areas of agreement as possible, while accepting that both sides may need to move. I am pro-choice. However, the US constitution doesn’t appear to support my position, so that means - if I lived in the US - that I would have to live under state by state laws. How do you propose to get laws that favour your position if you won’t listen and you refuse to persuade or compromise with majorities that disagree with you?

I’m not trying to be argumentative - I really want to know what you are suggesting to get what you want, if the solution isn’t political.

It's sad that I am oppressed, not that I feel oppressed.

You are clearly enjoying forcing me to acknowledge my powerlessness and physical vulnerability. The online equivalent of a man grabbing a woman by the nape of the neck and rubbing her nose in it.

I suppose you expect me to thank you stepping back.
Why don't you acknowledge the points I made regarding pro-lifers supporting gun laws because both issues are in the same wheelhouse?

It is important. But people will people.

We saw how pro lifers shot themselves in the foot (no pun intended) by failing to register that quality argument content and appealing delivery matters, especially when the tide is starting to turn against your once glorious moral majority. And they carried on with that as they lost more and more ground, in part because they would not, perhaps could not, see how the content and tone of their message was doing more harm than good.

Recent history, all in my lifetime, there for the learning from.

It won’t happen.

Pro life side just waited it out until their most chilling (and at the time unconvincing) arguments started to look more realistic. Thanks fading “feminist icon for 2 minutes” sleb who lamented having never had an abortion, et al.

High Visibility pro choice will likely do the same. Just stick to what is said and done now hoping for different outcomes, but able to live without them, rather than take a “own side” critical look at how you can make a parody of your opponent and fight said parody. But that won’t help you much with the actual, complicated, multifaceted, individual people who don’t agree with you 100% about all of the points, all of the time.

The iceberg has flipped. I don’t think pro life learned much either. Some, but not much. And complacency will set in fast as the legal wins mount up. That will stick to them, make them the heavier side, then we’ll flip again. There will be female shaped collateral damage in the decades while we wait for that, but at least nobody had to consider how persuasive their arguments & delivery were. Phew !

‘You are clearly enjoying forcing me to acknowledge my powerlessness and physical vulnerability.’

I’m not engaging with you further.

@achillestoes why do you say that I won't listen? What a ridiculous statement. I have been listening to their side and their points for decades.

What do you mean by compromise? If abortion is outright banned in a particular state, what compromise can there be? I think the word you meant to use is comply. Not compromise.

I don't know why you keep saying majority. Banning abortion is not supported by the majority of the people in the US and our system of government does not equal a majority viewpoint, I'm not going to get into a whole political science lesson on how our representation works but it's not as simple as the majority voted so that's what you get.

Even if it was, why do you think that women should be okay with a decision made by men?

You're just going to studiously ignore the police officer beating an abortion activist in the street as an example of the pro lifers using physical violence to intimidate while trying to goad me into saying I'm going to do something about either abortion or gun owners when I have said nothing of the sort, or even implied such a thing.

Why do you keep asking me what the plan is? How am I supposed to have a plan to counteract any of this?

As far as listening to people, I have listened to the people on the other side of this debate. At least most of them have the fortitude to state their opinions openly instead of this weird circular mind fuck you're on. Those people I can respect.

It really was a shock to me. I’d steeled myself for what I’d imagined. But I hadn’t been imagining women who didn’t want to be there. I was only ready for women like me, who were risking a lot for something they believed was the right thing to do in their circumstances, at that time.

An abortion medication wasn’t around in the west back then. But pharmaceutical abortifacients could be purchased where I was at the time. I came under a lot of pressure to take the medicine. But two unlabelled grey pills in a tiny zip lock bag … looked wildly dangerous to somebody from a world where an abortion was a medical procedure with a doctor. So I refused, despite knowing a medical abortion would not look like it did back home. But I trusted an illegal doctor not to kill me off by accident than my then husband with his little bag of grey pills.

In retrospect I wonder how many women had a wanted pregnancy interpreted by pharmaceuticals slipped into their food or drink. I think that’s why I’m leery of medical abortion being prescribed without seeing the patient face to face and without “company”. Not against it, but leery. I can’t pretend those women didn’t exist or that the men and women collaborating to make them be there couldn’t exist in another country, no matter how superficially different.

I just don’t know if the experience coloured my view to a reasonable or unreasonable extent about the number of people willing to bend a pregnant female to their will if they are against the baby being born. So I abstain (inside my head, it’s not like I get a vote) on the telemedicine abortion question. I’m going to have to wait until I get more convincing arguments that what I worry about is deeply and effectively factored into the equation.

Boxowine

There’s a lot in that post and we would end up going on all day if I engaged. You clearly think I think something that I don’t. I’m sorry we can’t communicate more clearly with each other.

What do you mean by “us”? Do you live in one of those states?

Lol, I am literally telling you that we are being beaten in the streets and you ask why I'm not listening? Didn't that used to be a sick joke about why a woman has two black eyes, because she just wouldn't listen.

Do American women a favor and maybe just focus on women's issues in the UK because if you think this is being a friend to us we don't need enemies.

I'm sure someone has a pronoun on their name tag somewhere you can occupy yourself with.

‘Do American women a favor and maybe just focus on women's issues in the UK because if you think this is being a friend to us we don't need enemies.’

Yes, I think I will. Best of luck to you.

Wow