Roe vs Wade / gun laws

[placewherewebelong]

I have been reading with horror as the case has unfolded. I personally struggle to see how people can claim to be pro life then subject children to be potential orphans, or in care, or to live with parents who didn't want them, or as the product of a rape, and be so PLEASED with themselves. It horrifies me.

That aside -

why on earth is a country that still has gun laws where children are shot dead and people are encouraged to carry arms deciding that the biggest problem is stopping women from making their own choice about their own child and their own body?

I don't understand :'(

What are you proposing, some sort of divine fiat?

People need to deal in realpolitik. If they want to have legislation, they need to get people behind it. If they can't, the legislation will not be brought forward, or it will not pass. Or it might pass but there will be other problems because so many disagree with it.

Who is your minority here? Women are half the voters, and more to the point, women are even more likely to be pro-life than men. If you can't convince them to support your position then maybe you need to consider your strategic approach.

You keep going back to the idea that majority rules without acknowledging that the US system of government is not based on strict democracy or that it's possible for a president to be elected without carrying the popular vote. As is the case with Trump's election.

He was not elected by the majority of the voters.

I also disagree that women are more likely to be pro life.

Please respond to my question about a GOP candidate punching a woman candidate in the face at an abortion rally and how that ties into your contention the issue can be settled thru a democratic process when pro abortionists are being violently assaulted while trying to convince people to support their cause. Do you consider that to be an example of oppression?

Also, who is "they"?

I also want to point out that your arguments based on the democratic process don't recognize the events of the January 6 insurrection, where forces spurred on by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas's wife attempted to subvert the peaceful transfer of power. Resulting in the deaths of five Capital police officers. How is this democracy?

" what do you want, a divine fiat?" I would prefer to leave God out of this. He has yet to prove himself a friend of women.

‘I hear what you're saying but we don't care that children are shot dead in schools but consider ourselves passionately 'pro-life' gets a big eyebrow raise from me.’

I know. I find it hard to square away as well. The concern I have is that the rhetoric (as tempting as it is) that pro-life Americans as a whole don’t care about the lives of seven year olds doesn’t convince anyone. It riles people up but it doesn’t work, because (I think anyway) it’s not true.

And on democracy, I know the US system is very complex and the President isn’t necessarily leading a majority, but the argument that the government of the majority doesn’t protect the preferences of a minority is problematic for me. There’s no legitimate governance by a minority. We have words for those types of governments - oligarchies, aristocracies etc. If you can’t persuade enough people round to your viewpoint to get a majority, and you still get to enact your laws, how is that legitimate government?

Well, anyone who agrees with having guns certainly doesn't care about the lives of children. Or anyone, really.

‘Well, anyone who agrees with having guns certainly doesn't care about the lives of children. Or anyone, really.’

Is that what you honestly think? Deep down?

This. I'm not an expert on this but I have a relative who has been fervently anti abortion for years - it's a real cause for them. They are evangelical Christian which is a large part of the reason.

Is this move representing religious beliefs?

No doubt Americans also have deeply entrenched mysogyny. They didn't vote for Hilary, they don't offer maternity pay, we have better women's rights on this small isle...

Yes.

Have you seen the footage of the actor (his name escapes me) talking about how they had to identify a child by the colour of their shoe?

Could you explain to me one good reason for having a gun? One good thing that a gun does? Any good reason that justifies the murder of thousands of people every year?

‘Have you seen the footage of the actor (his name escapes me) talking about how they had to identify a child by the colour of their shoe?’

Yes.

‘Could you explain to me one good reason for having a gun? One good thing that a gun does? Any good reason that justifies the murder of thousands of people every year?’

No. I dislike guns. I wish they’d never been invented. But in asking me for a justification of the murder of thousands of people every year, you still don’t advance your argument that other people want those deaths to happen.

I have never lived in the Appalachian Mountains, or the Rockies, or rural Texas. I assume people there believe they require guns for self-defence, hunting, family tradition. I don’t believe those reasons outweigh public safety (I dislike guns) but I don’t believe they amount to wanting kids dead either, and by insisting that they do, we only entrench their cynicism about our motivations.

Because American conservatives tend to believe that
a) killing a fetus is murder
b) carrying a gun is self defense and having gun laws will just stop the good people from having guns while doing nothing to stop the bad people from getting them.
I don't agree and I think people who think this are a bit dim. But that is their position, and that's why they simultaneously support these two policies.

But by continuing to allow guns, knowing they are responsible for the slaughter of women and children, how can they not see that people would view them as condoning this?

But why dont they have the same mantra we do here? Carrying a knife is more likely to get you killed by a knife.

Other than the odd one who enjoys shooting animals (which I'm not convinced makes them a good person) I can't think fo any good person who would want a gun.

Could you explain to me one good reason for having a gun?

That's a bit of a dim question. I know plenty of people who shoot for sport or who own a gun for vermin control, and even in the UK, police officers are armed for certain kinds of activities.

I live in Japan and it's possible to own a gun here, although you have to pass all kinds of screenings before it is allowed.

US gun nuts are ridiculous, but you just make yourself sound really silly by saying things like "why would anyone ever need to own a gun??" Even the strictest countries in the world do allow gun ownership for responsible people who have been through the proper processes.

I'm not sure why you are calling me dim, or being as patronising and rude as you are, so I think I'll stop engaging with you.
I'm so glad you told me police officers had guns, I had no idea.

Restricting gun rights and allowing access to abortion have one key thing in common in that the majority of the US population are in favour of them - around 60% in both cases. The issue is that the people in power are not representing the rights of the majority of the electorate, they're representing a more powerful minority.

The 'pro-lifers' are perfectly happy for 7/8/9 year olds kids to be collateral for the right to be able to buy a gun in a supermarket with no checks.

Perfectly happy.

None of it is logical. They have their beliefs and they will never stray from them, no matter how many times it is pointed out how batshit it is. Its just how it is in America.

This.

@Boxowine Here's a link to the incident;

''Providence police patrolman Jeann Lugo who was running for state Senate was arrested on an assault charge after allegedly attacking his female opponent during an abortion rights protest Friday night.''
news.yahoo.com/off-duty-rhode-island-officer-203840991.html

Because that’s their reading of the second amendment to the US constitution.

Others disagree with that reading, believing g it’s only referring to allowing an armed organised militia.

Pro lifers are not pro life. If they were. they'd be campaigning for better maternal health care, or post natal care, or maternal leave. FGM and child marriage are still legal in many US states.

Religious extremism comes in many forms.

some sort of open referendum in every state, dis-linking the issue from the political process if not from the politicking - would that work?

It's all going exactly the way those who control the power want, they have no incentive to change. Gerrymandering of voting districts and using many methods to make it difficult for the voters you don't like to vote are all commonplace. Democracy is pretty rotten in the US.