If men aren't to be considered to be women for the purpose of sport...

[Pluvia]

If science has shown that men cannot be considered to be women for the purpose of sport, then for what purposes can they be considered to be women?

For the purpose of accessing women's lavatories and changing rooms? For the purpose of accessing women's prisons? For the purpose of getting a bed on a women-only NHS ward? For the purpose of accessing women-only and lesbian-only spaces?

Should women using women-only facilities not be consulted and asked if they wish to share their space with someone who, for sporting purposes at the very least, is male? If some people are deemed male for the purpose of sport, should not that definition of their sex carry over into other areas of life that are organised on the basis of sex?

Can you really be a man when it comes to competing in a swimming event but expect to be accepted as a woman when you want to go to the lesbian-only club night?

Good question I'd love to answer but I suspect that I'd get a ban

Excellent question Pluvia
An international sporting body has popped the fantasy bubble that people can magically change sex. And insists on chromosomes being the main identifying factor. And it looks as if countless sporting bodies will follow suit - based on facts and evidence.

Consultation with women would be very welcome. I can see very little evidence of outrage apart from the self interested and the professional outraged on twitter. The majority agree it's common sense and I've enjoyed listening to news outlets discussing this and being forced to speak factually rather than in gender woowoo speak.
Hopefully we can move this common sense approach to prisons and hospital wards - it's long overdue for the feting of sex offenders to cease.

I just tried asking the question of a friend who'd called in to drop something off. She's not involved in the debate, except to be up in arms about Emily Bridges because she (friend) is a competitive cyclist. I read out my post and she looked a bit blank and then said 'But why would any halfway decent sort of bloke want to go into a women's changing room or a lesbian-only night?'

Excellent point.

Hooefully this is the beginning of the end of this notion across the board.

And there is the answer to your question. No self respecting man would.

Yes, it's preposterous that males should be regarded as women in any real life situation. Those other fights are all being fought too, but it's sport that's currently making the headlines.

I don't think males should be considered female under any circumstances because 1) It's just not true and 2) I can't see how on earth you could ever police this and stop men from doing it for nefarious reasons and 3) It's still not true!!

My partner has just thrown a wet blanket over me by pointing out that the sport issue is about fairness in competition and that there is no such element of fair physical competition when it comes to a lesbian-only event or an NHS single-sex ward...

But it's not the 'half decent blokes' that are the problem...it's the predatory males....and if they can, they will....and they do.

But fairness or not, it’s the breaking of the taboo of saying that men are not women that’s important.

But it still applies for toilets, prisons and refuges. For safety.

I'm still slightly hopeful - sport are saying the quiet bit out loud - that men remain women even after they transition. Doesn't stop them having the same respect and rights that the rest of us have, but it highlights that they remain male and therefore should not be entitled to women's hard fought for rights.

Time will tell I suppose.

And that is why I believe that there are groups preparing to take this decision to human rights courts! It will be an interesting dilemma.

I suspect that those courts will have to show that they completely independent, that may be an additional dilemma.

But women around the world would be forcing people to hear their voices in court and will demolish this myth that we are the majority accepting. Not once has this been proven when it comes to sports or toilets. Yet… the myth still is perpetuated.

Yes: the crux is how can you be two things that are considered separate and opposite at once? A man in the morning, for the purpose of a swimming competition, and a women in the afternoon for the purpose of attending a lesbian group?

It really points up the legal fiction, doesn't it?

You can if you are Eddie Izzard!

I am really hoping for third space toilets, prisons and refuges for trans people.

I suppose those who have swallowed gender ideology will just repeat the "gender is fluid, sex is so complicated, don't be a bigot be kind" line, because these people and those like the OP's DH don't think about it properly.

Obviously anyone actually critical of gender ideology can see this glaring problem immediately, but too many wave it away because "most vulnerable, oppressed, stunning, brave blah blah"

DS 17 told me to stop being a hater, and I nearly lost it! I don't think he has thought about it at all.

Will the next substantial intersection of rights occur between
NBs (who abstain from acceptance of binary sex classes and may/not accept gender identities) and
people who are transgender and favour presentations of gender identities and, perhaps, cross-sex validation with legal documents?

Do NBs need to shelter under a trans umbrella or would they consider their own separate representation and organisations?

Several British surveys have shown that it is more than 70 % of the population that doesn't believe you can change sex and who wants segregated spaces for women to be respected so it is known we just got some people aggressively denying it and/or lobbying for it to be disregarded

I was wondering about this too OP - I think that the recent sporting rulings prove that TW are in fact NW. Even if in theory it's only for the purposes of sport it still proves the distinction which has to be helpful elsewhere too surely?

This already happens. For those who are female and that consider themselves male. They stay in female sports as they know they have zero change of winning in a male category.

No, that's missing the point.

The reason why sports is an issue, is because men have an unfair advantage. There is a reason.

As there is for those other spaces. Men are bigger and stronger than women. They constitute the predator class. They constitute the violent class.

So in situations where women are vulnerable, or they can't escape, or they're naked, that's the reason for the segregation. The same with sports. Women are vulnerable to stronger and more powerful people in terms of winning.

Where's there's a reason, we segregate. Parking the car, buying food, walking in the park, - no segregation, because there's no reason to.

Many men understand sports, because they are completely familiar with the concept of physical strength in competition. And how it highlights advantage and therefore vulnerability. They have no trouble grasping the concept of bantamweight and heavyweight. They don't have to think twice. They know a heavyweight would pulverise a bantamweight.

But they do have to think twice when it comes to the advantage men have over women, because most decent men never exploit it. Or it's so ingrained, that it never crosses their mind what it's like to be the vulnerable one in the equation.

Hence the NAMALTing when you point it out.

Which should be the same as saying of course men can be in women's boxing, because let's face it, there are hardly any of them, most men aren't like that.

The point being, that those who are, will exploit it.

If me it comes down to the fact that if you take the dead body of anyone who has been through puberty and have only their bones left, anyone with the right experience and qualifications will extract their DNA and say what sex the owner of that body was. If there is no DNA available then they will decide it based on specific features within the bones themselves.

Sorry, I meant to quote Pluvia's post in my response

TW are not the problem either. The problem is predatory males.
I always clarify that it's not TW that I want to stop accessing women's space it is biological men.

I find the be kind brigade (not the captured) listen more when they realise it is biological men with a penis that they are advocating share with their mums/wives/daughters/themselves