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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

That GC grenade that I chucked at work...

82 replies

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 20/06/2022 22:54

I previously posted how I sent a long anonymous email to my work (London law firm), querying their transitioning policy. In particular, the fact that it would allow a male colleague who decides to transition immediately to use the women's toilets, showers and changing rooms. (Unfortunately my thread was deleted as MN weren't happy that I had set up a new account to post it, and also I referred to 'trans identifying males' which is terminology not allowed by MN, just FYI).

I asked if they had done an equality impact assessment to consider the impact on women generally (and also women from particular backgrounds, and female survivors of domestic abuse and sexual assault). I also asked them if they would publicly confirm that anyone who harassed someone for expressing respectful GC views would be dealt with according to the firm's disciplinary policy (the transitioning policy says anyone harassing someone because they are transgender would be disciplined). I included lots of links/references to the Equality Act, the EAT judgment in Forstater, EHRC guidance etc, questioned the appropriateness of following Stonewall advice etc.

I submitted the question to be answered in the annual firmwide forum, which is taking place this week, and which allows people to submit questions to senior management.

In the meantime I have had the below response from our head of D&I (who on the whole I like and respect, but we are signed up to the Stonewall Diversity Bllcks so that respect only goes so far...)

"We carry out a rolling review of our policies. This one has not been looked at since November 2020 and it is therefore due for a fresh review.

I will make sure that it is included in the next round of reviews that we undertake. We recognise that this conversation has evolved since then, and is continuing to evolve, and we will take the points you have raised into consideration in the course of our review.

I am sorry to hear that you felt you could not raise these issues other than on an anonymous basis.

I can assure you that there is no intention to prioritise one set of views over another and if, at some point in the future, you feel that you might be comfortable to have a confidential conversation with me to discuss your concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me."

Hats off to them for managing to turn it into a bit of a damp squib. 🙄But I will keep a beady eye and if they have done nothing within the next 3 months I will start agitating again. Ditto if they come up with some crap along the lines that they will deal with the question of which toilet etc facilities can be used by a transitioning person on a case by case basis (the most cowardly way to fudge it, no transparency at all). I'm hoping in the meantime we might get something helpful about what a sh*t shower Stonewall are in the Allison Bailey ET ruling, though I've no idea when that's expected.

And at the forum meeting this week my prediction is they'll just summarise the question, say they are reviewing the policy and move on, but I will let you know!

OP posts:
WalrusSubmarine · 21/06/2022 07:06

That is interesting - the penny is starting to drop that this is more complicated than peeing AND that they’ve created a culture where employees cannot raise legitimate concerns.

Well done!

WarriorN · 21/06/2022 07:09

Well done op!

I wonder if sport will help - showing you can be inclusive by providing open categories (unisex loos) v single sex.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 21/06/2022 07:16

FannyCann · 21/06/2022 06:58

I am sorry to hear that you felt you could not raise these issues other than on an anonymous basis.

I'm confused. You submitted the letter anonymously but the head of D&I replied to you personally?

I sent it from an anonymous gmail account.

If you have a look at the thread entitled “Deleted thread?” you will see some clever posters managed to find an archived copy of my original thread which includes the email I sent to my firm. Unfortunately the hyperlinks didn’t carry through when I posted it here but when I can find the time I’ll try to include them another way and will repost it.

OP posts:
SummerLobelia · 21/06/2022 08:32

That was an excellent letter.

I have said before and I say again. I believe all people have the right to live in safety and dignity. That includes anybody who is trans.

I believe that predatory males will always look for any loophole that allows them access to victims. (As someone who works in a law firm and specialises in child protection and who previously worked in in NGOs that worked with trafficking victims I like to think I have an insight into this fact). I have no doubt that the bulk of TW wish to live their lives in peace. But as a pp said- the predatory males are not coming into our safe spaces with postit labels on their foreheads saying 'sexiual opportunistic predator'. (Although it could be said that the male prisoners committed of sex offences who then identify themselves into women's prisons come as close it it as one would think Hmm )

This madness has to end.

RinklyRomaine · 21/06/2022 08:38

I didn't realise the thread had been pulled OP. Well done. I think that's actually a positive response. Acceptance with question IS dying, thank heavens, and even woke af law firms are starting to see the conversation HAS to be had, and that womens views on womens toilets must take precedence.

@Katypyee Yes yes, they just want to pee. Safely. Without threat or lost privacy. As do women. In any consent environment, the one who says NO take precedence. Else it's not consent, it's violation.

Personally I couldn't give a fuckadoodle about genitals. It's sex which concerns me, which is coded into every cell of every person there ever was or ever is, no matter what body modification they practice. No Thank You.

Slothtoes · 21/06/2022 08:39

Great work OP

VerveClique · 21/06/2022 08:47

Having worked somewhat at the receiving end in this situation, sometimes this happens.

Despite the rather bland response, I would hope that some quite difficult decisions will now be going on in the background.

I've never faced this particular question in my professional life, but I have decided that I would push very hard if challenged, and would potentially have to resign if it came to it.

WhereYouLeftIt · 21/06/2022 09:12

Katypyee · 21/06/2022 00:12

Trans women (just like trans men) just want to go about their lives without people (women) thinking they are trans just to molest women in bathrooms. Trans women need to pee too. The fact that you (and many posters here) are so invested in people's genitals speaks volumes.

Funnily enough, everyBODY needs to pee. On account of being a living body. Female bodies need to pee too, and until recently those female bodies were able to pee in a space that was reserved for female bodies only, to afford privacy and dignity to them. There are males in this world I trust completely not to molest me or any other woman (my father, husband, son) but that doesn’t mean I’d give them a bye to enter female toilets. Because that would breach my privacy and dignity.

Don’t minimise the effect of males in female spaces with your sneery ‘genitals’ comment. Not unless you also acknowledge that what we are ‘invested’ in is ‘people’s’ larger size, bigger musculature, greater strength, decades of socialisation, sense of entitlement and willingness to steamroller over women’s dignity and privacy in pursuit of their personal validation. That you are so invested in ignoring this speaks volumes.

SummerLobelia · 21/06/2022 09:19

And what is insane is that in theory women are natural allies. Transpeople can be vulnerable. Women are almost always vulnerable at many points in their lives. But the immediate cries of 'Transphobe'. The hatred. The doxxing. The death threats. The rape threats. The threats to ruin careers. Even the flipping deletions on this board on MN. The attempts to silence. To cancel. To destroy.

I mean, really.

Sliceofpi · 21/06/2022 09:33

Well done ,

VortexofBloggery · 21/06/2022 09:35

It's a holding letter from HR / D&I but I think it's a positive one. The penny is starting to drop that women cannot be excluded from their spaces, and it's a legal right to hold valid opinions about that. Thanks to Maya & co for forging ahead.

heathspeedwell · 21/06/2022 09:40

When they say "We recognise that this conversation has evolved since then, and is continuing to evolve," I wonder if they mean the general public are finally waking up to the fact that women have rights too?

I wonder if they are realising that women wanting the privacy, dignity and safety of single-sex spaces isn't transphobic, it's perfectly reasonable and sensible.

CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 21/06/2022 09:45

Yes, a big thank you to Maya and all the others (JK, Allison, Katharine Stock, Sarah (challenging rape crisis Brighton), Helen Joyce, Sharron Davies, Glinner, Jo Phoenix and too many more to mention) for bravely blazing a trail for the rest of us to follow.

I am going to try to post my original message to my firm in one chunk below (having replaced terminology which MN don't allow so they don't pull the thread again). It is soooooo long (sorry! anyone would think that lawyers get paid by the word 😜) that I'm not sure if it will all fit on one page or if it will blow up MN's servers but here goes...

OP posts:
CraggyIslandTouristBoard · 21/06/2022 09:50

Question submitted to LawFirm:

Summary

The LawFirm transitioning policy rightly makes clear that any colleague wishing to transition to a different gender identity be supported by the firm and colleagues. However, by allowing any male bodied person to use women's changing rooms/showers and women's toilets, it ignores the needs of women at LawFirm for dignity and privacy.

However sympathetic women may be to a transitioning male colleague, we do not want to shower and get changed in front of male bodied people, or to share toilet facilities with them.

The transitioning policy refers only to the needs and wishes of the transitioning person. Did the firm consult female employees or undertake any Equality Impact Assessment in relation to the impact on women at the firm of this policy, and if not, will it now do so?

I am not aware of any trans colleagues in LawFirm (which isn’t of course to say there aren’t any), but felt it important to raise this issue now, as I would not want any colleague transitioning in future to take the below as a personal attack on them.

Full question

If any colleague at LawFirm wished to transition, I would hope and expect they would be supported by colleagues, and treated with sympathy, dignity and respect.

However, I am concerned that:

  • the LawFirm transitioning policy discriminates against women at the firm;
  • the firm has uncritically followed Stonewall's guidance, when this has been shown to be misleading and to misrepresent the law [1] (see also here)[2], and to betray gay people*[3] as well as women; and
  • the firm did not conduct an Equality Impact Assessment, consult women at the firm or seek any guidance from any women's interest groups (to counterbalance the wholly one-sided Stonewall view), when drawing up its transitioning policy.
Sex is of course a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, as is religion (as to which see further below).

In particular, and as noted above, the transitioning policy states that if a LawFirm colleague transitions, they are entitled to use the toilets and changing rooms/showers of their new gender identity.

This means that if a male colleague transitioned to the female gender, women at the firm may be required to share the women's toilets and women's showers and changing rooms with a male bodied person.

I think the overwhelming majority of women at the firm would not be comfortable with this [4]** and if a male bodied colleague were to transition it is likely that many women would avoid using women's toilets and the women's changing rooms if they thought they were likely to encounter that colleague there.

Female-only changing rooms and toilets are lawful and achieve the legitimate aim of providing the safety and privacy that women want and need when they are in a state of undress, or when they are going to toilet or using the space to dealing with multiple other sensitive issues (such as incontinence, menstruation and miscarriages).

This is particularly important for certain categories of women, including survivors of sexual assault or domestic violence (who certainly exist at the firm), while some forms of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and other religions have strict rules that require females to be covered in the presence of males, so such women would have to self-exclude from women's facilities if a male bodied person may be present.

Special exceptions exist in the Equality Act to allow the lawful exclusion people born male from female-only spaces, with changing rooms listed as a specific example in the official guidance to the Act.

All males can be lawfully excluded, even members of the male sex who self-identify as women and even males who have legally transitioned to female. The vast majority of trans women do not legally transition and do not undergo gender reassignment surgery so retain male bodies including male genitalia. I use the women's changing rooms and showers frequently at work and I would not be comfortable in getting undressed in front of any male bodied person other than my partner. I am in no doubt that most women feel the same.

The impact on any trans woman colleague of retaining single sex spaces, and the dignity, privacy and safety of any such person, can be adequately met by providing in the firm's policies that any transitioning person use the gender-neutral toilets and changing rooms, or the facilities which match their biological sex. (Interestingly the policy seems to ignore the fact that some trans people prefer to continue to use the facilities of their biological sex rather than their new gender. Trans men in particular do not always wish to use men's facilities).

Potential claims against the firm

The policy gives rise to a number of potential claims against the firm, and again I wonder if any of this was considered when the policy was drawn up:

Indirect discrimination

As noted above, the fact that the transitioning policy allows male bodied people to use women’s changing rooms means that some women would be prevented from using them if their religion says they must not uncover in the presence of males. No improper conduct has to actually occur. It is enough for a woman to have been unfairly deterred from using the changing rooms because of the transitioning policy.

Sexual harassment claims:

A changing room policy that facilitates unwanted conduct of a sexual nature by another person could lead to a claim for sexual harassment. A sexual attack does not have to happen for harassment to have occurred. It is sufficient that the policy has the purpose or effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the complainant or of violating the complainant’s dignity.

While a small number of private gender-neutral facilities exist, these would not be sufficient for, eg, female attendees of a gym class to use. This is quite apart from the fact that women should not be forced give up their own hard fought-for single sex spaces [5] to male bodied people.

Conclusion

While no doubt well meaning, the efforts to bend over backwards to be inclusive towards a tiny (and perhaps currently theoretical) minority group have the effect of excluding well over 50% of people at LawFirm.

I have directed this query to a number of addressees and I would hope at least some of them are already familiar with the Equality Act 2010 Schedule 3, sections 27 and 28, as well as the EAT judgment in Forstater v CGD Europe [6]. Before formulating a response, I would ask whoever is tasked with considering this query to read the detailed legal analysis at: fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/.

If (as I suspect) time does not permit the above to be addressed very fully during the Town Hall, then I would very much welcome a full written response to this question whether to be provided via the Intranet or to my [personal email].

In addition to addressing the question of an Equality Impact Assessment, I would like to know whether the firm will publicly confirm/adopt a policy that it will not tolerate bullying and harassment of employees who respectfully express gender critical beliefs? I presume it is not only LGBTQ+ colleagues who are permitted to bring their “true selves” to work.

While the EAT has stated that gender critical views are protected by law, (and this has recently been confirmed by the EHRC) I feel able to raise these issues only anonymously. This is perhaps more a reflection on wider society and the very successful attempts made by Trans Rights Activists to silence and intimidate women who dare to raise entirely legitimate concerns (Stonewall’s #nodebate being one of the most egregious examples).

However, the wholly one-sided nature of the firm's current transitioning policy, as well as its subscribing to Stonewall’s Diversity Champions programme means I feel unable to express my legally protected beliefs at work, which should be a source of regret to the firm.

I very much look forward to your response.

*With apologies, I would not normally include links to the Daily Mail.
I would also note, in relation to Stonewall, that its CEO has likened gender critical people – including any lesbian who does not wish to have sex with a trans woman – as akin to antisemites, a view which many Jewish people [7] as well as lesbians, find extremely offensive.

** The results of the recent YouGov poll show an overwhelming majority women think that trans women who have not had gender reassignment surgery should not be able to use women’s changing rooms or toilets. As noted above, the vast majority of trans women never undergo gender reassignment surgery.

Footnotes:

  1. https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sex-Matters_-Understanding-Stonewall-Risk-_-070721.pdf
  2. https://unherd.com/thepost/the-university-of-essex-exposes-stonewalls-toxicity/
  3. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10811203/Trans-activists-wrecked-good-work-Stonewall.html
  4. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
  5. https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/
  6. https://www.gov.uk/employment-appeal-tribunal-decisions/maya-forstater-v-cgd-europe-and-others-ukeat-slash-0105-slash-20-slash-joj
  7. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/anger-grows-over-stonewall-boss-antisemitism-comment-1.517532
OP posts:
TessaSmith · 21/06/2022 10:13

Wow. What a frigging stellar letter Craggy. Bag loads of respect.

For context. I'm starting my TC soon in a law firm in the city. It seems the firm is not a Stonewall Champion anymore (it definitely used to be, and not sure they have completely stopped or are less obvious about it now) but lots of pronoun flouting by (mostly male!) Lawyers on LinkedIn. I find it intimidating to be honest and I do not dare writing anything at all which is supportive of GC views on social media for fear of reprisals at work.

Anyway, your letter gives me hope that law firms may begin to consider the implications. I think HR has been given too much sway in some instances without the employment team checking the policies thoroughly. But it is also batshit scary when the SRA itself is captured.

Moodycow78 · 21/06/2022 10:15

You know OP, I think this is a really good response. There's definitely some backtracking there on the policy and sounds like some justifications for why it was implemented and why it may well be changed are starting to be formulated.

RenegadeMatron · 21/06/2022 10:24

Absolutely amazing letter @CraggyIslandTouristBoard - love your work.

Hawkins001 · 21/06/2022 10:31

All the best op

Oestrogelsmuggler · 21/06/2022 11:17

Good stuff!

WellThatsMeScrewed · 21/06/2022 11:51

Well done OP. I’ll be taking points from your letter as my organisation goes this way.

I would be very wary of having a ‘quiet confident word’ myself. But then I’m not as brave as many of the women here. Sad

Note to everyone keep focused on the OP. Ignore those who try to derail (yet another) thread but are not willing to engage in adult, respectful debate.

Redshoeblueshoe · 21/06/2022 12:08

Well done

Cailleach1 · 21/06/2022 12:40

Thank you for reposting that Craggy. I quickly copy and pasted it into a word document this time. Just in case..

Circumferences · 21/06/2022 12:48

I remember your previous thread, and asked the question:
"At the conference is the firm obliged to answer all questions put to them or can they just brush aside any questions they don't want to answer?"

Then thread closed...

From your new post here it looks as though they could easily ignore your question with vague proclamations to consider all questions in the probable distant future.

I do feel optimistic for you however! Sterling work.
Do keep us updated.

Madcats · 21/06/2022 12:57

I remember your earlier thread. Thank you for the update.

It seems a little unlikely that they haven't reviewed their policy for 2 years, but I hope they have now realised that female staff are becoming more aware of what lobby groups have been up to and will be watching closely.

BookWorm45 · 21/06/2022 13:27

Well done Craggy - that is a great letter

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