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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When abortion is banned

99 replies

MsAmerica · 20/06/2022 01:15

Poland shows the risks for women when abortion is banned
By Katrin Bennhold and Monika Pronczuk

She knew that there was a short window to induce birth or surgically remove the fetus to avert infection and potentially fatal sepsis. But even as she developed a fever, vomited and convulsed on the floor, it seemed to be the baby’s heartbeat that the doctors were most concerned about.

“My life is in danger,” she wrote in a string of distressed text messages to her mother and husband that was shared with The New York Times by her family’s lawyer. “They cannot help as long as the fetus is alive thanks to the anti-abortion law,” she wrote only hours before she died. “A woman is like an incubator.”

www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/world/europe/poland-abortion-ban.html

worldnewsera.com/news/europe/poland-shows-the-risks-for-women-when-abortion-is-banned/

www.ekathimerini.com/nytimes/1186635/poland-shows-the-risks-for-women-when-abortion-is-banned/

OP posts:
Izzy24 · 25/06/2022 12:39

I expected there to be a lot of discussion today about the Roe v Wade ruling- is there some reason I don’t know about ? Or maybe I’m not looking effectively.

I’m completely stunned and can’t get my head around the fact that someone I have known forever has said that she can’t condone or support abortion and that the gift of life is in the hands of God …

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Izzy24 · 25/06/2022 12:40

Sorry muddled post - I mean that I can’t find any discussion on any of the boards.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/06/2022 14:00

At least one thread has been deleted.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/06/2022 14:05

Also I am just so fucking glad that I am no longer fertile.

CatherinaJTV · 25/06/2022 14:19

in some states you can now no longer get IVF for fertility problems, nor chemo for cancer if you are pregnant.

placewherewebelong · 25/06/2022 17:06

I really struggle to understand how people claiming to be pro life will put a foetus (a potentially motherless foetus who may end up in care) over the life of a woman, because they've decided thats how it should be.

MagpiePi · 25/06/2022 17:30

LaughingPriest · 25/06/2022 10:57

This is one of the most hideous, backwards and FUCKING STUPID things I've ever read. It's truly appalling. What the actual FUCK?

(not you Truth, the bill).

Do you think it was a man that proposed this bill?

(Rhetorical question, of course it was a man)

MagpiePi · 25/06/2022 17:34

Trinity65 · 25/06/2022 12:30

Its outrageous and dreadful

I am Pro Choice .

What made me think was after viewing Alfie and Up The Junction that both featured back street abortions/aftermath of .
Women Died back then too as we are all aware
Never thought that the USA would go back to those Times but seemingly they Have,

I think that the people who support the ban on abortions think that women will continue the pregnancy and have a miraculous change of heart and become loving mothers whose problems all disappear on the birth of their baby. I don't think they realise that women will seek back-street abortions or abandon their children, or raise them as unwanted children.

Gakatsbsk · 25/06/2022 17:56

As a Registered Nurse, I am horrified.

This policy will kill women, they would rather woman and foetus both died than save the life of the woman.

Nurses in the US will have patients that die from ectopic pregnancy, septic uterus that could be so easily prevented.

I grew up a catholic and my mother is a catholic (pro choice) - there is nothing Christian in this ruling.

Izzy24 · 25/06/2022 18:46

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/06/2022 14:00

At least one thread has been deleted.

Why was it deleted do you know?

seems pretty sinister really

placewherewebelong · 25/06/2022 18:46

MagpiePi · 25/06/2022 17:34

I think that the people who support the ban on abortions think that women will continue the pregnancy and have a miraculous change of heart and become loving mothers whose problems all disappear on the birth of their baby. I don't think they realise that women will seek back-street abortions or abandon their children, or raise them as unwanted children.

Must be lovely to live in disney land.

Metabigot · 25/06/2022 19:09

I went blind in one eye at 36w due to diabetes ( not gestational diabetes) had an early section and recoverd but heard of another woman having similar problems at an earlier stage in pregnancy and having to abort to save her sight.

This is not uncommon in t1 diabetics as the pregnancy hormones can cause retinopathy where blood vessels grow on the retina break and bleed and can lead to permanent sight loss

How many more women would lose their sight in America now?

Cailleach1 · 25/06/2022 19:30

@PomegranateOfPersephone It happened in Ireland too didn’t it and in El Salvador women go to prison for up to 30 years after suffering miscarriage or stillbirth.

In the UK, (NI part), it was life imprisonment for illegally procuring or carrying out an abortion under the Offences Against the Person Act. In Ireland before the constitutional referendum, I think it was 'only' 14 years imprisonment. Even after the referendum, although there is legally access, there is limited practical access.

Below is a vote in 2015 by TD's (MPs) in Ireland on the 'fatal foetal anomaly' Bill, to allow women access to abortion in these desperate situations. Over five sixths of (and overwhelmingly male) Dáil (Parliament) voted against it. The lads happy to make women carry a baby to full term, even with fatal foetal anomaly. Bear in mind, that 2015 is fairly recent.

February 2015:A Private Members Bill to legislate for abortion in cases of fatal foetal anomaly is put before the Dáil. The Bill is rejected (104 TDs vote against the Bill and 20 TDs vote in favour).

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-can-you-really-be-jailed-for-abortion-in-northern-ireland

www.ifpa.ie/advocacy/abortion-in-ireland-legal-timeline/

Cailleach1 · 25/06/2022 19:35

Just to add, in the ifpa link, there are some cases of pregnant women with cancer who were denied medical care (even painkillers) to treat their disease. Women who subsequently died of their disease; one woman just two days after she gave birth.

There are probably many examples of that don't make the news. Women treated so badly by the Irish state then, as now.

FannyCann · 26/06/2022 16:55

Well I've written to Liz Truss and started a thread.

Please do copy and paste the letter and improve on it when you send it.

I thought of starting a government petition but did not want to identify myself so if anyone would like to use some of the content of my letter to start one please do.

To ask Liz Truss to require Foreign Office Travel advice to include advice regarding countries that ban abortion where women may not receive appropriate treatment for miscarriage http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4577248-to-ask-liz-truss-to-require-foreign-office-travel-advice-to-include-advice-regarding-countries-that-ban-abortion-where-women-may-not-receive-appropriate-treatment-for-miscarriage

FannyCann · 26/06/2022 16:59

Here are her contact details:

[email protected]

[email protected]

When abortion is banned
FannyCann · 27/06/2022 08:12

A reminder from the other thread, please write to your MP and ask them to contact Liz Truss about this, that is the correct way to do it.

@MumBlah @PomegranateOfPersephone
@Thelnebriati

See the thread I started on AIBU linked above for the letter I have written.

FannyCann · 27/06/2022 08:16

A shocking thread from twitter.

Pro-lifers don't like complexity. At 17 weeks my placenta detached and he was much too small. I thought I felt my baby's frantic attempts to breathe. My OBGYN advised me to terminate the pregnancy, there wasn't much time. But I couldn't.
Every doctor told me it would only get worse. And it did get. But I already loved him. I'd waited 8 years for him. They saw on the Ultrasound that his umbilical cord was yards long.

An umbilical cord spinning out a lifeline helplessly. He'd stopped growing. But his heart continued to beat even as his movements - frantic at first when the oxygen cut off, slowed, and he became horribly still. I hated the doctors who couldn't save him.
An infection spread from the placenta to him. I began to understand, to believe them - that I would die too. I felt that we were dying. But selfishly I waited for more tests, and more tests, dozens of them.
In a natural world without medical science, fluid tests, ultrasounds, in a world like the one God may have intended we would have died without the nightmare of knowing beforehand. But we are in this world. When my fever rose my family insisted. I was a mother already.
My child needed me. My family arranged with New York Presbyterian Hospital for us to fly to Kansas because I was now in my 24th week and he would not have filled my palm.

I dreamt of being filled with ice, and death. His organs were shutting down so there was no amniotic fluid. He was in a dry and poison uterus, suffocating. I was panicked by the thought of his suffering.
We arrived in Kansas - an arid place I had only imagined through "The Wizard of Oz". I was delirious, things were getting worse.
The doctor in Kansas was kind, but sad. He carried a shotgun because he'd once been shot in both arms. Our taxi driver slowed to a crawl and rolled all the windows down as we arrived at the clinic. I didn't know why. My son was in the car with us.
I hadn't realized we were coming to one of those places from TV with angry people outside. They brandished signs cruelly displaying the bodies of tiny fetuses. Pumping the signs up and down and shouting.
They saw my son in the car and began shouting at him, "Your mother is killing her baby!". A nurse pushed through to shield us and guide us into the clinic. A psychologist spoke to my son. The process took a week. There is no such thing as "partial birth".

I held his tiny body. We had a private service with a minister. He was like a bird in my hands. My son. I had never felt so empty. A trickle of blood ran out of his nose and I wiped it. Back in NYC some too observant people in my building knew. My milk had come in.

The mail carrier who delivered his ashes to me knew, and I could see she wanted me to know that she disapproved. I saw she also felt sorry, but like she was supposed to despise me. We'd always gotten along. I closed the door and held the box under my robe and sobbed on the floor
"Don't worry, he just forgot something. He has to go back to get it, then he'll come back." my son was wise. I felt so much sadness. 15 months later I had a baby.
I was nursing him in the glider, and the song "Frankie and Johnnie", was playing. I picked up the NYTimes. On the front page I saw that the doctor from Kansas had been killed while ushering in church.

Murdered by a man who traveled miles to kill the baby killer, hunting him down on a Sunday morning. People think of abortion as ending life, but it saves women's lives, mothers' lives. There is life today because of Dr Tiller. Where there would have been only emptiness and death.

There is a complexity in the decisions a woman makes when the situation is impossible to fix. Women should be treated like humans.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1540797614945439744.html

FannyCann · 27/06/2022 08:19

I don't quite understand why she had to fly from New York to Kansas for treatment - I assume she must have passed the time limit for legal abortion there. It's so shocking that women are having to go through this to save their lives.

FannyCann · 27/06/2022 08:20

Link she included in her thread.

www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html

TheBiologyStupid · 27/06/2022 09:24

sweetgrapes · 20/06/2022 09:05

This! Every time it is this.
Women are acceptable collateral damage before ideology.

+1

PomegranateOfPersephone · 27/06/2022 09:26

Heartbreaking 💔

Fanny, as you are a HP, do you know would this woman have been treated under obstetrics/gynaecology in the local hospital in this country without needing to travel to a particular abortion clinic? It sounds like her situation was an obstetric emergency. The sort of situation that we might not even consider abortion?

FannyCann · 27/06/2022 11:23

I couldn't comment on USA treatment she received, in the UK I would expect her to have been treated within her local hospital. Abortion clinics aren't set up to treat sick women with sepsis although most late elective abortions would be done in a clinic rather than NHS hospital I believe.

By that I mean "late" in the context of close to the 24 week limit, probably after about 16 weeks though no doubt that varies around the country. By "elective" I mean terminating an unwanted pregnancy.

Where women are having a late termination for foetal abnormality or other pregnancy complications I would expect that to be done within a local hospital setting. It probably varies from one place to another whether obstetrics or gynaecology would manage it. In my training hospital there was a separate ward area with all single rooms where this would have been managed but I know women complain about being on a maternity ward in a very upsetting situation. Sometimes the gynaecology ward is a less than ideal situation too.

Although the limit in the UK is 24 weeks (for elective termination) the law allows later than 24 weeks where the health of the mother is compromised or for severe foetal abnormality so the woman in the thread should have received safe compassionate care in her local hospital if she had been in the U.K.

When abortion is banned
When abortion is banned
PomegranateOfPersephone · 27/06/2022 12:42

Thanks FannyCann it is good to know that a woman in a similar situation in the UK would receive safe, compassionate care in her local hospital. If only it were the same the world over.

ImNotOnTwitterButMySupportGoldfinchTweets · 27/06/2022 14:02

When I was in the FAU pregnant with DS3 (who had stopped moving), there was an incredibly distraught couple in for a termination. When their first child had been born they’d discovered they both carried a gene that caused severe disability (I don’t remember what exactly) and when have 12 week scan they’d check new baby and found he was also affected. Doctors advised them to terminate and they had an appointment. Every single doctor that had been on shift since 8am had refused to sign the paperwork for them. Every single one. The woman was sobbing as the situation made her feel like she was doing something terrible. The midwives were huffing at the doctors « She’s got an appointment, it’s a genetic disorder, one of you needs to sign » and they all kept saying they wouldn’t sign off abortions.

i know they have that right, and I understand why, but it made me think that actually abortion is pretty precarious here too. I’ve never forgotten how distressed they were and I wonder how long it took them to find a doctor who would sign the paperwork.

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