Fina stops transgender swimmers from competing in women's elite events

[Kendodd]

Common sense.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

I think it’s because they want to protect against legal challenges by following the science. The science says that it’s male puberty that gives male swimmers an advantage over female swimmers. An advantage that cannot be overcome, however hard the women train.

This allows them to create a special category for ‘people who don’t have the male puberty advantage’, which they’re going to call … ooh, I dunno, why don’t we call it the ‘women’s category’. Nice name.

However, if someone with XY chromosomes hasn’t gone through male puberty, they don’t have the puberty advantage either - which would leave FINA open to a challenge if they defined woman as ‘XX chromosome’.

Therefore, they’ve defined male puberty as stringently as they can.

I thought actually that putting that in the report was to make people aware that children are "transitioning" younger and younger. To sort of wake people up, theres still some parents out there with no idea how bad this whole thing has got.
Plus we all of us know that those few who do "transition" so young will be left with many problems because of the drugs and will not be physically able to do sports.
It's a bit of a token thing plus possibly trying to get it in the news? for a guess.

To be covered "in a few minutes" on radio 4 Today programme.

Sports science expert India Willoughby has already been sharing their expert opinion on GMB.

Hopefully this Elite ruling will quickly trickle down to Club level and eventually into social swimming and its changing rooms

Fallon Fox, who doesn't understand the arguments.

Karen Pickering. Really clear. Fab.

Hopefully people will look up fallow and see who they are. 😡

@Anactor , I don't follow your argument. Are you saying that it's impossible to define what a woman is??
Because it isn't. We are adult human females, xx , and we deserve our own sports category.
We are not weak puberty-deficient males.

Do they have to medicalise to be in the open category or is it just that they can? I think this is a decent outcome really. And saying that womens started small and with much much less money is pointing that out to all the people saying it’s a ridiculous suggestion. It’s what women did. So if there is this exponential increase in not just trans but genderfluid/non binary, here’s a competitive category for them. They are recognised and welcomed.

Can't believe (well, I can) that BBC had Fallon Fox on to argue the lack of advantage...

www.sportskeeda.com/amp/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight

That R4 piece was really clear. FF opened by saying the ruling would result in violence against transgender people. FF was pressed to explain this statement but couldn't. FF said black people and gay people are not excluded from sport so transgender people should not be excluded either. FF did not engage with any of the science or evidence put to them.
Karen Pickering was very clear that sex and puberty confer advantages on males in terms of heart size, lung size, limb length etc and it's is not just about testosterone levels.

Justin Webb gets this. Well done R4.

Wondering if LOJ will pop up on Jeremy Vine this morning..

Given what has happened in the world of gymnastics and the abuse of young girls, I am not convinced that in the most competitive groups, someone somewhere will be thinking about how to transition young swimmers.

No, I am not saying they have to be, I was musing on the fact that if open interpreted transgender identities as purely ideological, then it could mean that transwomen who do medically transition would not be able to fairly compete (or for women, transmen who medically transition would - presumably - be at an unfair advantage, and then there is micro-dosing). On the assumption that trans people can continue to compete in their sex based categories, then open becomes a category for those who medically transition or whose ideological belief or severity of gender dysphoria mean they feel they cannot compete in line with their sex.

I am just trying to think it through, especially in the light of the investment of time and money that would be required to establish the category in competition.

Though I wonder if ideologically driven non-trans people would also prefer the non-sexed category?

I know what a woman is. You know what a woman is. But what happens if someone who doesn’t brings a legal challenge?

You can prove that male puberty brings an advantage that cannot be overcome by training. Therefore, people who haven’t gone through male puberty need their own category.

In the midst of this insanity, I’ll go for that.

The irony here given that Fallon Fox has no problem with, nay, revels in, violence against women. Above and beyond usual trash talking common to fighting.

This is great news and huge thanks to the female swimmers who've spoken up to get this ruling agreed. Very very brave.

I am disappointed by the inclusion of the transition before 12 years element. I understand that it's aim is to state that's it's male puberty which confers the advantage, but it does suggest that 'transition' is a real thing and children can undergo it and then they're validly the opposite sex.

Also, I'm going to admit: I don't care much about how trans people take part in sport. It's really not top of my concerns in life.

I'm happy with just male and female categories and everyone just takes part in the category relevant to them, and meets the same rules as everyone else on drugs etc.

Job done. No need to think about anyone's identity at all.

If there are people who want special categories and races for Trans people they can get busy fund raising and organising. I wouldn't object, but I really don't care myself whether this exists or not, it is not an issue which feels important to me.

I know I'm supposed to at least pretend I care, but I don't.

very sensible. reminded me of this from c 20 years ago, KP (MBE with dozens of top level swimming medals) beaten at swimming by a very mediocre, average sized, second division footballer.

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/3965687.stm

Delighted with that news makes perfect sence.

Did you learn anything Dreikanter?

I'm pleased that Radio 4 gave this news some prominence this morning. I was also glad that they managed to get Fallon Fox as an interviewee.

She didn't manage to advance any sensible arguments other than (and I paraphrase here) "but we feel like women, too, so it isn't fair" and "if you are going to ban men from swimming in womens' races you should also ban blacks".

Two way empathy in this debate is sadly lacking.

Wow. Did they honestly say that last sentence?

RudsyFarmer I intended to stress that I had paraphrased there, there was also talk that Michael Phelps had an unfair advantage because of his big feet.

This is Fallon's Twitter feed and the sentiments in the R4 interview weren't dissimilar:
twitter.com/FallonFox/status/1538735357008543746?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet