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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Guardian article about Kate Clanchy "The book that tore publishing apart: ‘Harm has been done, and now everyone’s afraid’"

1000 replies

miri1985 · 18/06/2022 17:50

www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/18/the-book-that-tore-publishing-apart-harm-has-been-done-and-now-everyones-afraid

Interesting article but Sarah Ditum said it on twitter better than I could "I think it's a major flaw that this article broadly assumes good faith on the part of cancel-culture agitators. A lot of them are perfectly self-interested and borderline sociopathic" twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1538144622643494912?cxt=HHwWgIC-3dCYy9gqAAAA

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Innocenta · 20/06/2022 15:29

I hadn't followed the Twitter side of it but it's hard to imagine forgiveness with how entrenched the hate against KC appears to have become. I'm not surprised she (Kate) feels devastated and broken by it. Of course forgiveness would still be the best outcome, though.

potniatheron · 20/06/2022 15:35

As the proud possessor of a Cypriot bosom (I know exactly what she means, and no I'm not offended) I have the following thoughts:

  • A PP compared the physical descriptions to physical descriptions by Lionel Shriver or the Amises; this is not the same: physical descriptions in fiction are often seen through the eyes of one of the characters and reveal the character of the observer just as much as the character of the observed; where KC's book purports to be some sort of memoir with descriptions of real (if composite) people;
  • Many books for young people, certainly books for teen girls such as Enid Blyton's school series (showing my age I'm afraid) explicitly link negative character traits to 'undesirable' personal characteristics e.g. in the fifth / sixth book of the Mallory Towers series a dishonest, lazy girl is primarily defined by her acne; a clumsy, non gender conforming girl is primarily defined by her size and weight - even as a child I clocked these things and found them hurtful, although they are obviously very much of their time;
  • The issue with KC's physical descriptions is one of context. She's in a position of power due to her status (teacher) and class (posh) and applying these descriptions to people of much lower status: pupils, working class. It would be different (though still lacking in imagination and literary grace) if she were to apply them to a putative equal. After all, how many journalists and bien pensant have made unpleasant allusions to the appearances of various politicians? It's the imbalance in status that makes it so othering and so 'Gentleman of the Raj looking down on the jolly funny natives'.
it's just bad, lazy writing, which is ironic cos isn't she meant to be an English teacher? But, really, her editors should have picked this up and the fact that they didn't suggests that a) they were trolling her or b) that standards in publishing had fallen even further than I had thought.

Yes, I'm sorry if she's a broken person. But, on the other hand, yes, her responses to the initial controversy made things infinitely worse for her.

beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 15:40
  • Her book does not purport to be a memoir. It is a memoir. If the people she describes in it are composite characters, then surely they are fictional too?
  • It's not a book for children.
  • So a writer should only describe other people who have the same level of power as she does? That's... not going to work.
TheLassWiADelicateAir · 20/06/2022 15:43

A PP compared the physical descriptions to physical descriptions by Lionel Shriver or the Amises; this is not the same: physical descriptions in fiction are often seen through the eyes of one of the characters and reveal the character of the observer just as much as the character of the observed; where KC's book purports to be some sort of memoir with descriptions of real (if composite) people

Er , yes the fact that they are not same was exactly the point I was making. Shriver and the Amises create characters who are often cruel, cutting, judgemental. unpleasant and unatractive, both in looks and personality. It'sexpected of them and quite appropriate when they are writing characters.

KC's book is not fiction but some of her descriptions wouldn't have been out of place in a novel by those writers.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 20/06/2022 15:54

Her book does not purport to be a memoir. It is a memoir. If the people she describes in it are composite characters, then surely they are fictional too?

That's having her cake and eating it. Commenting in a negative way on characteristics from real individual children but then saying , oh no it was a composite.

I think one of ones that bothered me the most was referring to a young girl's obvious moustache. She must know many, many women and girls are very sensitive about facial hair.

"Cypriot bosoms" is just daft and bad writing. I've no idea what she meant .*potniatheron does but equally Suleyman , another Cypriot, said it was nonsense.

The reference to the moustache however was just cruel and unnecessary.

potniatheron · 20/06/2022 15:58

beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 15:40

  • Her book does not purport to be a memoir. It is a memoir. If the people she describes in it are composite characters, then surely they are fictional too?
  • It's not a book for children.
  • So a writer should only describe other people who have the same level of power as she does? That's... not going to work.

Her book does not purport to be a memoir. It is a memoir. If the people she describes in it are composite characters, then surely they are fictional too? - That's why I said 'purports'. If it'ds a memoir, then they're not fully fictional characters are they? granted that the lines between fact and fiction and very often blurred in memoir, and fictionalised memoir is a sub-genre all of it's own, it still sits uncomfortably with how it was marketed, ie as a memoir. So her defence of composite characters, when coupled with the specificity of some of the descriptions, is what makes it uncomfortable.

I never said it was a book for children. I was just musing on the role of less than flattering physical descriptions in fiction.

So a writer should only describe other people who have the same level of power as she does? That's... not going to work. - Nope, not what I said. But I do think the uncomfortable nature of the Clanchy book rests partly on the power imbalance and the fact that she's describing children from the viewpoint of a more privileged and experienced person, implicitly linking physical descriptions to specific events in the lives of the characters (and unpleasant events, like SA), plus the blurred lines between fiction and memoir.

Also, I understand what she's trying to do - classic pen portraits - but I felt she's not a good enough prose writer to get away with it. Which is where the editor should have come in, and pulled her back down to earth a bit.

potniatheron · 20/06/2022 16:00

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 20/06/2022 15:43

A PP compared the physical descriptions to physical descriptions by Lionel Shriver or the Amises; this is not the same: physical descriptions in fiction are often seen through the eyes of one of the characters and reveal the character of the observer just as much as the character of the observed; where KC's book purports to be some sort of memoir with descriptions of real (if composite) people

Er , yes the fact that they are not same was exactly the point I was making. Shriver and the Amises create characters who are often cruel, cutting, judgemental. unpleasant and unatractive, both in looks and personality. It'sexpected of them and quite appropriate when they are writing characters.

KC's book is not fiction but some of her descriptions wouldn't have been out of place in a novel by those writers.

Ah sorry I misread you then! I just saw a reference to one of my fave authords (Shriver), thought about some of her more on-the-nose and nasty physical descriptions (specifically the prison guard with the facial moles in Kevin) and jumped right in!

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 16:18

Clanchy erred. She was not cruel. I don’t like cruel people.

Clanchy deliberately and knowingly lied, and threatened to have an ordinary member of the public fired, and attempted to create a witch hunt against a poor woman, purely because she expressed an opinion that Kate Clanchy found offensive, and Clanchy believes that freedom of speech should not exist.

That is clearly and undeniably a very cruel thing to do.

The assumption of good faith is dead.

That statement does not apply here, since KC's original attack was received with practically nothing except good faith.

The entire publishing industry and most of Twitter took KC at her word that she was telling the truth about her book not containing those quotes. The fact everyone believed KC surely is proof that everyone did assume good faith on her part?

The reason people lost good faith in KC is because she was exposed as having lied.

achillestoes · 20/06/2022 16:21

Jemima, as I said yesterday, I won’t engage someone as sensitive as you clearly are. Be well.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 16:22

And plenty of people think what she said is just fine for the kind of book it is.

I have not seen a single person willing to come right out and state "I think it's perfectly fine to make sexualised comments about children" or "I think it's fine to make judgemental comments about a raped child and specific details of a raped child's body."

In fact all her defenders appear desperately to pretend those comments are not in the book.

The only people I've seen claiming the book's contents are fine are those cherry picking a couple of quotes (always quotes about race, and golly so many of KC's proud "anti-woke" defenders sure do seem to relish the opportunity to talk about how black women are being oversensitive and wrong about racism!) and claiming those quotes are fine.

If a trans person had written what KC wrote there'd be half a dozen threads on Feminist Chat baying for their blood, accusing them of grooming, and discussing ways to get the book pulled.

Innocenta · 20/06/2022 16:24

Jemima, plenty of people are interested in these events without having any particular attachment to being either woke or anti woke. As I said in one of my earliest comments on this thread, that's not something I'm at all drawn to identifying with.

I'm hesitant to even try engaging with you after your reactions last night.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 16:38

Kate Clanchy's supporters have been asked repeatedly to stick to discussing the book and all of the issues and debates surrounding the book, the GoodReads review, the subsequent events on Twitter and in the media, and the broader debate about censorship of books. And desist from making personal attacks and personal abuse of posters whose opinions you find offensive.

Unfortunately I can't make you stop derailing the thread with personal abuse and gaslighting comments aimed at discredit my opinions by painting me as mentally ill.

It's a real shame that you are so offended by opinions that are not the same as yours.

Innocenta · 20/06/2022 16:42

Jemima, no one is gaslighting or abusing. This is exactly the kind of accusation that stymies actual debate, because people are naturally hesitant to engage if it's going to trigger such distress, and cause these extremely unfair claims.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 16:51

I'm truly sorry that you refuse to stick to debating the actual thread topic.

beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 17:00

I'm not defending KC's writing. It's bad writing - at least the examples I've seen.

What I am defending is her right to not have her speech suppressed.

I'm also really appalled by the abuse and bullying she's getting on twitter. It's horrible.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 17:02

I'm also really appalled by the abuse and bullying she's getting on twitter. It's horrible.

Agreed, it's disgraceful.

There were some very interesting comments upthread about the pressure on writers to maintain social media profiles and engage with readers, and also on the fundamentally uncontrollable nature of social media mobs.

Interesting and valuable debate.

beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 17:02

Jemima, I feel the same as others - wary to engage you after how you have behaved. I wish you well, but I don't think it's possible to have a productive conversation with you.

PlantSpider · 20/06/2022 17:03

If a trans person had written what KC wrote there'd be half a dozen threads on Feminist Chat baying for their blood, accusing them of grooming, and discussing ways to get the book pulled.

It does seem to be you bringing trans people into this rather than anyone else. I’m not sure I do see the parallel that you do. It also does seem to me that a lot of the original criticism (particularly on this thread) aimed at Clanchy was her response to the criticism rather than what she wrote and so again I don’t 100% see or agree with your point.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 20/06/2022 17:07

I made one single polite post saying "stick to the subject and not other posters please" after dozens of posts calling me stupid, weird, hateful, accusing me of engaging in gaslighting, having "a bee in my bonnet about Kate" and accusing me of knowing Kate personally and having a vendetta against her.

For that one polite comment I have been gaslighted and punished with more than half a dozen comments attempting to paint me as mentally unstable and claiming that I am stifling debate, when I am the one politely asking you to debate the issues not other posters.

It's very very very clear abuse.

potniatheron · 20/06/2022 17:23

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beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 17:23

I understand what she's trying to do - classic pen portraits - but I felt she's not a good enough prose writer to get away with it. Which is where the editor should have come in, and pulled her back down to earth a bit.

I can agree with that, although to be fair I haven't read the book myself. I don't think anyone is defending her writing, though. However, I do think it's a stretch to say that what she wrote is vicious/nasty/abusive/racist/white supremacist/transphobic/predatory/whatever other adjectives twitter is using. I think she's just writing about her perceptions and her experience and readers are free to enjoy it, hate it, agree, disagree, whatever. In a year's time, there will be other words that will be considered unspeakable, other phrases that mark a person out as a bad 'un. KC's crime (at least wrt her writing) is that she hadn't kept up with what is considered rightspeak and wrongspeak to the extent demanded by twitter. I just don't consider that reasonable grounds for cancellation, censorship, or abuse.

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 20/06/2022 17:41

Hello everyone - it's clear this thread is in danger of becoming derailed. Can we ask that posters stick to the discussion at hand and to avoid making personal comments to those you disagree with? Many thanks.

MangyInseam · 20/06/2022 17:42

I don't have a problem with an author giving unflattering descriptions, even less so when the unflattering element is actually supplied by the assumptions of the reader. Nor do I necessarily have a problem with an author observing that a young person has a very sexualized appearance. Because you know, actually I am an adult and I already knew that these things were true. Underage kids looking sexualized is an issue but it is in no way something caused by the writer describing it, and I would say that a mature reader is going to take note of what the implications of sexualized young people are rather than imagining if we all pretend not to notice it's not an issue.

Honestly if these are the kinds of demands we make of writers we are going to loe a good deal of the best literature, because good writing depends on a kind of honestly with observations and on the page. No one is going to risk that.

potniatheron · 20/06/2022 17:43

beastlyslumber · 20/06/2022 17:23

I understand what she's trying to do - classic pen portraits - but I felt she's not a good enough prose writer to get away with it. Which is where the editor should have come in, and pulled her back down to earth a bit.

I can agree with that, although to be fair I haven't read the book myself. I don't think anyone is defending her writing, though. However, I do think it's a stretch to say that what she wrote is vicious/nasty/abusive/racist/white supremacist/transphobic/predatory/whatever other adjectives twitter is using. I think she's just writing about her perceptions and her experience and readers are free to enjoy it, hate it, agree, disagree, whatever. In a year's time, there will be other words that will be considered unspeakable, other phrases that mark a person out as a bad 'un. KC's crime (at least wrt her writing) is that she hadn't kept up with what is considered rightspeak and wrongspeak to the extent demanded by twitter. I just don't consider that reasonable grounds for cancellation, censorship, or abuse.

Oh, agreed. I don't think her work is "vicious/nasty/abusive/racist/white supremacist/transphobic/predatory" - that's just hysterical and silly. At worse, she's guilty of clumsy, cringey writing of a sort that's quite common in a certain type of memoir, whereby middle class person meets people from 'different walks of life' and gets their mind blown and learns so much and is so humbled, guys! I mean, I'm satirising but you get what I mean. It's common in a certain type of travel memoir. An editor should really have taken it in hand and the fact that they didn't says more about the publishing industry than Clanchy tbh.

I had a much better and more thought out response but MN deleted it because it had a swear in it!

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 20/06/2022 18:01

That's a gracious apology from Chimene Suleyman, I was glad to read it. I had understood her original point mocking the journalist's careful curating of Kate Clanchy as grieving and injured, but some of the other tweets definitely strayed into outright mocking of Clanchy's bereavement which is cruel.

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