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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner in the Times on what went wrong at the Tavistock

72 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/06/2022 12:58

A great article from Janice, an evidenced and informative read about the nature of the treatment of teenage girls at the Tavistock with the involvement of adult trans activists and lobby groups in determining how these girls were treated being specifically detailed.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1356292-ebdd-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=be1bbdedaf3cdb8c615e7e185ab135d7

OP posts:
McDuffy · 17/06/2022 13:01

Thanks for the heads up! Missed it this morning as it's just gone online... does that mean it will be in tomorrow's paper too?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/06/2022 13:02

I expect so McDuffy - it's only just gone online I think.

OP posts:
achillestoes · 17/06/2022 13:07

It’s fantastic reporting.

Enough4me · 17/06/2022 13:21

It is fantastic and it's evidenced based so the activists, who thrive off ideology, can have no counter argument to the obvious irreversible damage caused by unneeded puberty blockers.

Letterasaurus · 17/06/2022 13:22

Brilliant investigative reporting from Janice. I'm so grateful for her unstinting support for girls and women.

HumphreyCobblers · 17/06/2022 13:27

Thank goodness for Janice Turner. Amazing to see it clearly like that, although also shocking. There is another new article by Lucy Bannerman, also excellent.

WookeyHole · 17/06/2022 13:35

What a thorough and clear article.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/06/2022 13:46

Both articles are exceptional. Lucy's is a long interview with a young transman who was put on puberty blockers at GIDS at the age of 12 with minimal discussion first, never mind therapy. 'Alex' was one of the rare cases who didn't proceed to cross-hormones, fortunately, and the Tavistock at this point simply washed their hands of their then 16yo patient, no attempt to follow up and see how Alex was getting on, no concerns about long-term side effects, nothing.

I wonder how much of this awful mess is down to GIDS simply not coping with the enormous numbers of referrals, and how much is down to arrogance/incompetence/ideological blinkers from practitioners. In the former case, why did nobody in the NHS pick up on this as a potential problem? Is there no oversight of new or recently hugely expanded services to check how things are going? If not, why not? (Answer, I suspect: £.)

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/06/2022 13:47

t.co/Qu9aLoHTHc This is the link to the Lucy Bannerman article. I'm sorry I don't have a share token for it.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/06/2022 13:57

Brilliant.

NecessaryScene · 17/06/2022 13:58

So is this a collection of pieces for the Saturday issue? The magazine, maybe?

LookAtMyCircumstance · 17/06/2022 13:58

Wow.

Artichokeleaves · 17/06/2022 14:01

Enough4me · 17/06/2022 13:21

It is fantastic and it's evidenced based so the activists, who thrive off ideology, can have no counter argument to the obvious irreversible damage caused by unneeded puberty blockers.

They can, as witnessed on several other threads here currently, plus interviews etc.

It's absolute denialism. "There is no evidence. I see no evidence. Things are as I say they are."

"But look at...."

"There is no evidence. Things are as I say they are." (Smile.)

Abitofalark · 17/06/2022 14:06

Thanks for posting. A really detailed article and history of how the distinguished Tavistock clinic came to such a pass.

I was struck by a few things, one of them being about the director Polly Carmichael and what she is a doctor of or in:

"In response to such pressure [from lobbyists e.g. Mermaids, GIRES, and American medicine: children know their inner gender identity], in 2011 the new GIDS director, Dr Polly Carmichael, began a “trial” of puberty blockers. Then, before any research was concluded, she made the drugs broadly available in response, she said, to high demand. Case numbers had soared – with natal girls already overtaking boys – so a GIDS satellite clinic was opened in Leeds.

In 2014, GIDS lowered the prescription age for blockers from 16 to 11, and Carmichael appeared on the CBBC programme I Am Leo praising their benefits. “The good thing is,” she tells an apparently dysphoric female child, “if you stop the injections, it’s like pressing a start button and the body just carries on developing as it would if you hadn’t taken the injection.”

But already questions were being asked. Could you really arrest that complex moment in human brain and bodily development with no ill effects? Given that a barely pubescent child prescribed blockers who goes on to take cross-sex hormones – as almost every patient does – will be infertile and unable to orgasm, since their gametes will not have matured, could a 13-year-old really understand what her future adult self stood to lose?"

Then in 2015
"Psychotherapist Anastassis Spiliadis joined the London clinic in 2015 aged 28, as another band 7 [junior] in the huge intake of new staff to deal with mounting case numbers. While training at the Maudsley hospital in south London he’d already encountered gender dysphoria, “And it registered with me that cases can have different outcomes.” When he joined the Tavistock, its reputation led him to believe that therapy would be at the centre of his work.

But he immediately felt the priority set by Polly Carmichael – “who kept telling people that she was not a great believer in psychotherapy of any kind” – was to assess and process referrals in just a handful of sessions rather than deeper inquiry."

So what did she believe in or practise? And what was she doing in a place that was a renowned centre in psychotherapy and clinical psychological practice and teaching?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 17/06/2022 14:10

Wow that’s good

TheElementsSong · 17/06/2022 14:25

That's a powerful article.

MangyInseam · 17/06/2022 14:32

So what did she believe in or practise? And what was she doing in a place that was a renowned centre in psychotherapy and clinical psychological practice and teaching?

At a guess, drug therapies. There seem to be a fair number of psychiatrists who don't put much stock in any type of psychotherapy, and certainly not any of the more exploratory kinds. As far as they are concerned all mental problems are just looking for the right drug or medical intervetion.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/06/2022 14:44

Here's a share token for Lucy Bannerman's interview with "Alex" - words fail me. Sad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0bf8b08e-ebe2-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=e7381dc561158eca7dae4b7dd2ac5629

OP posts:
Abitofalark · 17/06/2022 15:02

Also striking: the wisdom and insights of Dr David Bell:

"In 2018, Spiliadis was one of ten GIDS clinicians who in frustration and growing horror about what was happening to children knocked on the office door of Dr David Bell. [psychiatrist and staff governor]
From these anguished clinicians he learnt that GIDS under Polly Carmichael was ignoring everything the Tavistock espoused."

He knew that you had to dig beneath the surface and that for psychiatry, sexuality is a key part of an individual:

'But children were being pressured by families or schooled by activist groups in what to say to receive medication. “How do you get beneath the surface then?” '

"And here is a clinic that doesn’t talk about sexuality, only gender. It’s so peculiar.”

'He notes that the current GIDS chief executive, Paul Jenkins, is the first not to be a clinician. “Almost every time he spoke at a meeting he talked about patient involvement.” While Bell agrees that we must all be involved in our medical decisions, “At a certain point it corrodes – it becomes a vehicle for attacks on expertise. So if the child or the family say they want this, we affirm them, without any interest in knowing why they want it.” '

Fashions - crazes even - in medicine: [Court of Appeal, take note]

'He puts medically transitioning children alongside the early 20th-century craze for curing mental illness with lobotomies. “Like lobotomy, there is no evidence. Like lobotomy, it starts with a patient in an impossible state and, initially, seems to work, then it becomes the universal cure.” Bell argues that with mental (as opposed to physical) medicine, “The existence of a treatment creates the illness. Good centres for pneumonia wouldn’t create more pneumonia cases. Whereas with ‘false memory syndrome’, in the Nineties, suddenly you had lots of cases. It was the same when Freud wrote about hysteria.

“So I think we have a group who, at one time, would have been anorexic. A lot of them became self-harmers, had borderline personalities, and then became transgender. So they’re people dealing with similar kinds of problems, but they get refracted through the lens of what’s going on in the culture.” Would he recommend GIDS to a young person uncertain about their gender? “Definitely not.”

Bell does not believe a national child gender service should exist. “It doesn’t make sense. We don’t have a national service for people who are depressed. It’s illogical, because any problems with gender need to be seen in the context of all the other properties children have.”

WookeyHole · 17/06/2022 15:05

Bloody Nora. Poor Alex.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/06/2022 15:05

MangyInseam · 17/06/2022 14:32

So what did she believe in or practise? And what was she doing in a place that was a renowned centre in psychotherapy and clinical psychological practice and teaching?

At a guess, drug therapies. There seem to be a fair number of psychiatrists who don't put much stock in any type of psychotherapy, and certainly not any of the more exploratory kinds. As far as they are concerned all mental problems are just looking for the right drug or medical intervetion.

Polly Carmichael is a consultant clinical psychologist. She has no medical degree. She will have undertaken professional training in clinical psychology and she has some academic/research publications. I don't know whether her doctorate is a Ph.D. or a professional doctorate in clinical psychology (DClinPsy). She may have both. The key point is she isn't a psychiatrist and she certainly isn't an endocrinologist. Her grasp of what puberty blockers do to a child's body can't be as good as if she were medically trained.

Abitofalark · 17/06/2022 15:37

Thank you for that, Gaspode. Not a psychiatrist but I'd still have had higher expectations of someone with her background and training.

Cuck00soup · 17/06/2022 17:01

A shame the comments are being pre-moderated but what a cracking article.

When this all comes out in court in the wash, I'm pretty certain that we will discover that NHS commissioners were lobbied too. I remember a discussion on these boards I had with R0 about this a few years ago.

For those who are unfamiliar with the system, a single commissioning group contracts nationally provided services on behalf of other local commissioning organisations throughout the country. While this is efficient, it unfortunately also means if that organisation puts idealism ahead of safeguarding, they are less likely to be challenged by other organisations.

Added to which it is considered "good" commissioning to involve patient representatives and or representative organisations. Getting patients representatives of working age to attend daytime meetings can be challenging, so involving - only too happy to rock up - lobby groups is an apparent solution.

This is no more than speculation, I have no specific knowledge of how the commissioning was done in this instance. My hunch though is that lobbyists would have been able to influence non-clinical commissioners and non-specialist clinicians. Commissioning has been GP led for over a decade now, where were the endocrinologists, the psychologists and the safeguarding experts?

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 17/06/2022 17:46

The comparison to lobotomy is one I've seen before but never so powerfully as here.

This will be (I hope - part of me thinks it'll be swept under the rug) an utterly incomprehensible scandal in the future.

I've been thinking lately, as many have, about cutting subscriptions to save money. This is why I won't cut my sub to The Times.