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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Equality, Diversity & Inclusion: where has this come from?

99 replies

MaudeYoung · 15/06/2022 17:12

From where is this political movement for EDI [Equality, Diversity & Inclusion] derived?

Is it an American import?

The concepts of Equality & Diversity are written in the UK Equality Act 2010; [we are all different and equal]. "Inclusion" [for all] is not. The Equality Act's starting point is that discrimination against any of the listed protected characteristics in specified circumstances is unlawful. That does not mean "inclusion for everyone at all times".

So from where, in UK, is this all-consuming dominant emphasis on "Inclusion" derived?

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 16/06/2022 07:16

So by all means suggest an alternative and lobby for it, if its a good idea I will be there lobbying it too. But dont withdrawn protection from a group of people without another option in place. I've worked in companies without HR departments, some tiny companies are fine, but a lot are absolutely awful

The alternative is to have a general-purpose HR department that is aware of equalities law, unions prepared to support staff with disputes, and legal aid.

Much as that's not perfect - is anything - I am absolutely unconvinced that a "DEI" department will be any more helpful to any individual than that. Indeed, I would expect a DEI department to be more of a threat to an individual. I've always regarded HR departments as being somewhat capricious, and potentially containing people you don't want to cross, but the DEI department? Absolutely terrifying.

And then the "DEI" people in the union will probably take their side rather than yours! See all the people having problems with the UCU...

You don't need a specific department staffed with people with DEI as their function. That's where the corruption happens.

An HR department at least has a general purpose - a utility to the company. It can't go totally rogue.

A DEI department's only purpose is to be a DEI department. All it wants is more DEI. It's a cancer, and will go totally rogue. What it's called doesn't really matter - the problem is it's a department for an abstract concept without a function.

I saw this the other day, and was amused. A small very-white town in Vermont with their own "DEI" group, tried getting some diversity on it. Story doesn't tell whether the extremely unco-operative black guy was the only black person they had - would make it funnier.

But it does illustrate the problem of - how do you stop or check this juggernaut? The committee has to exist, so you have to find people who agree with it existing. Saying it shouldn't exist isn't an option. Nor, I imagine, is saying it shouldn't grow. Don't you want Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, you bigot?

Councilors voted 4-2 to remove Keith Longmore, a local business manager, from the Belonging, Equity and Inclusion committee, which he called “a fraud and an affront to the families of this city” at a meeting last month. [...]

Longmore told VTDigger last month that he thought it was important he have a seat on the committee because its other members all “think alike,” adding he represented “the families of the city of St. Albans that don’t buy into the woke game.” [...]

The city manager and mayor wrote that Longmore has “repeatedly derided the mission and the need for the committee,” including by calling it “unnecessary” and “a hoax.” [...]

“I'm really concerned that this committee won't be able to function with somebody who has expressed a complete lack of faith in the machine,” McCarthy said.

In a letter to the editor that appeared in the Saint Albans Messenger last summer, Longmore contended that St. Albans was in the arms of a “wokeness brigade” and deemed the committee “unnecessary” a month before it was created.

He also said that as an African American, he had not experienced discrimination or felt unwelcome in the community.

At the committee’s May 10 meeting, Longmore questioned member Reier Erickson’s decision to read a statement saying that St. Albans is located on Indigenous peoples’ land. He also questioned why the committee members did not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

When asked to share his name and pronouns, he said, “Keith Longmore. American. MAGA. Make America great again. America first.”

Longmore later said at the May meeting that he disagreed with what he saw as an effort by some committee members to try and paint St. Albans residents as “blanket bigots and racists,” because the city’s population is largely white.

“They’re white people. They do white people things. I’m OK with that,” he said.

What if it's mainly white people want this stuff, and the people it's nominally for are against it, cos they think it's basically a job-making scam? (Polls in the US are shifting hard against the Democrats in every demographic apart from white university-educated, I hear).

I saw another piece here, which I don't find totally convincing but probably has something in it - suggesting that this has taken hold far more in the US than other countries as a form of job creation for a massive surplus of humanities graduates. It argues that somewhere like Sweden has far more bureaucratic places to put them that are less harmful, so they have less scope to set up enclosed belief systems like DEI.

Wokeness, the Highest Stage of Managerialism

Glitternails1 · 16/06/2022 07:24

@Tompariswasmyfavorite well said. The women who are petitioning to get rid of EDI departments are probably white upper middle class.

KittenKong · 16/06/2022 08:03

Surely people complaining about them are doing so on the basis of them not actually doing their jobs?

Don’t make this a race/class thing - the only D&I stuff I actually see in action is purely of the rainbow variety (and all male biased) .

Tanith · 16/06/2022 08:25

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 03:15

That's certainly true, for it to work at all more would have to be spent.

But I actually think the premise was flawed. Inclusion in the standard classroom is not always the best or most appropriate solution, for either the kids being included or the others in the class.

I've known kids back when I was in school for whom it was really great, they were able to work, they got a lot out of it academically and socially and also I think it was quite positive for other students.

That is not always the case no matter how much you spend, and there were real losses related to getting rid of classes geared to students with various learning issues or other factors that affected their classroom experience. Not least that being the one who is always at the bottom of the class and having to have accomodations and help isn't always the most empowering or enjoyable experience.

Yes, I do agree that total inclusion one-size-fits-all was never going to work. It was just another cost-saving exercise to close down many of the special schools that were doing excellent work in supporting children who really couldn't cope with mainstream classrooms.
However, when I was at school, children were quietly removed and sent to special schools because they were "naughty", or deaf, or had physical disabilities. I remember reading that Tanni Grey-Thompson's family had to fight to keep her in mainstream education.
For children like them, inclusion has been a success.

Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 11:34

KittenKong · 16/06/2022 08:03

Surely people complaining about them are doing so on the basis of them not actually doing their jobs?

Don’t make this a race/class thing - the only D&I stuff I actually see in action is purely of the rainbow variety (and all male biased) .

Unspecified race of feminists (probably white): lets get rid of HR and diversity and inclusion its not serving us

Mixed race/disabled feminists: urm actually we are finding it quite helpful over here

Unspecified race of feminists (probably white): You're wrong, I've never seen it help people like you so it can't be

🙄

Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 11:43

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 03:20

Tompariswasmyfavorite

It sounds like the sector you work in has much bigger issues than DEI. I don't think that level of problem is particularly typical though, and I'm not convinced it justifies keeping sections that are rooted in that thinking in all workplaces. Though maybe your whole industry should be binned along with the HR people, it sounds irredeemable.

Multiple sectors

The only thing keeping me from the discrimination and racist sexist ableist attitudes I have come across is working for bigger firms with HR departments

Just take a wander off the feminism board to the employment board for example. See the shit women are still putting up with. See how much worse it is for women in companies without HR departments.

This isn't just my experience and if you are ignoring that and proclaiming 'get rid of HR' your tunnel vision will just damage women first and foremost.

apintortwo · 16/06/2022 17:28

It is very interesting isn't it? It's as if some have chosen to impose a different version of the law from that which exists

Organisations can redefine meanings and twist words until they are blue in the face, but they are not above the law. If they think they are, and decide to recklessly 'impose a different version of it', they are opening themselves up to lawsuits and their actions being challenged in Court. Expensive in terms of money and reputational damage.

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 22:54

Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 11:43

Multiple sectors

The only thing keeping me from the discrimination and racist sexist ableist attitudes I have come across is working for bigger firms with HR departments

Just take a wander off the feminism board to the employment board for example. See the shit women are still putting up with. See how much worse it is for women in companies without HR departments.

This isn't just my experience and if you are ignoring that and proclaiming 'get rid of HR' your tunnel vision will just damage women first and foremost.

No one has suggested getting rid of HR. And you are not the only person on the boards who has ever been in a workplace.

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 22:58

@NecessaryScene - that article is rather amusing, but it pretty closely paralells other stuff I've been seeing a lot of coming out of the US. I think the Democrats have been extremely unwise in assuming that they have the non-white vote all stiched up. The last election we know both the black and Hispanic vote moved more Republican, but if another presidential election were to be held there today, I think you would see an even larger shift, and maybe a lot larger.

jaffacakesareepic · 17/06/2022 00:04

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 22:54

No one has suggested getting rid of HR. And you are not the only person on the boards who has ever been in a workplace.

People are literally talking about 'binning hr' and getting rid of diversity and inclusion people

But whatever, I yield you go back to your white feminism

MangyInseam · 17/06/2022 01:05

Throwing around disparaging comments about race because you disagree with someone is a bit much and it doesn't add any weight to your argument. People of different races are all over the place on questions like this.

WarriorN · 17/06/2022 07:04

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 15/06/2022 19:24

The school SENCO was described as the Inclusion Lead back in 2017 on emails I still have.

Inclusion has been a term in SEND since the 2000's, I first knew if mid decade when I started teaching in a send school.

There was an inclusion mark award you could get that schools worked hard on. Previously we had the word "integration" but that was seen as not being pc enough.

I'd been v confused with its use in other contexts as as far as I understood it sex, sexuality and different religions, cultures and races were all seen as the norm in teaching.

Disability is STILL the area that's not covered in teaching. (I know there are disability researchers looking to change this and not lump it in with the EDI stuff.)

WarriorN · 17/06/2022 07:05

StudentMumTo3 · 15/06/2022 20:06

Inclusion has been a term used a lot for over two decades, at least! It was a term used a lot, and a driver for, big changes in SEN with more "inclusion" of disabled children and those with SEN in mainstream education. That all happened under New Labour.

There's also been lots of research that has shown that the focus on equal opportunities does not necessarily lead to equality of outcomes, or equality in experiences, etc. Again, nothing new - it lead to use of translators and interpreters in hospitals, disability ramps in buildings, etc.

If some companies and individuals are only just waking up to these discussions, it doesn't make them recent imports!

Didn't see this post, yes I agree.

WarriorN · 17/06/2022 07:13

Something my school worked / works hard on is making links with local mainstream schools and running projects where the pupils from both schools work together on a project. Obviously accessibility is a key factor but there are many areas of the curriculum that are more flexible and inclusive than others; eg art, food tech, singing. Some of our pupils who are v able in maths have joined in mainstream maths lessons, supported. Others have joined pe lessons.

NonnyMouse1337 · 17/06/2022 07:42

The alternative is to have a general-purpose HR department that is aware of equalities law, unions prepared to support staff with disputes, and legal aid.

I agree. I don't see the point of DEI staff as their sole purpose is to keep themselves in jobs by creating a never ending stream of issues and pretending that groups of people are a monolith and we all agree with their ideas just because we have a darker shade of skin colour etc.

A decent HR team / department that properly understands and has proper training in equalities law should cover most problems faced by employees.

WarriorN · 17/06/2022 08:26

I was just reflecting on this; within safeguarding in school we have very specific areas eg racism, fgm, peer on peer abuse, sexism and sexual harassment, radicalisation, bullying and discrimination.

They're not shoved under the EDI label but specifically illustrated and named.

And as such is more useful.

MaudeYoung · 18/06/2022 06:10

Here is an example of what I mean about this dominant focus on "inclusion".

In this news story from Scotland is this quote:

"'As a public body we take cognisance of changes in society around how such questions may be asked without discrimination and have a duty to promote inclusiveness – therefore all donors are now asked the same questions.'"

No, the public sector duty is to avoid discrimination against any of the protected characteristics. This does not mean you have to treat everyone identically in every instance. You have to acknowledge diversity and treat people according to that diversity.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10928505/Male-blood-donor-turned-away-clinic-refused-answer-pregnant.html

OP posts:
Orchardsandpianos · 18/06/2022 16:37

MaudeYoung · 18/06/2022 06:10

Here is an example of what I mean about this dominant focus on "inclusion".

In this news story from Scotland is this quote:

"'As a public body we take cognisance of changes in society around how such questions may be asked without discrimination and have a duty to promote inclusiveness – therefore all donors are now asked the same questions.'"

No, the public sector duty is to avoid discrimination against any of the protected characteristics. This does not mean you have to treat everyone identically in every instance. You have to acknowledge diversity and treat people according to that diversity.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10928505/Male-blood-donor-turned-away-clinic-refused-answer-pregnant.html

Or a busy overworked underfunded nhs can have one form to give to all patients with all relevant questions.

If this wasnt trans related we would be talking about how fragile that mans masculinity was that he stormed out rather than just tick a box to say he wasnt pregnant.

I'm really struggling to see how he was discriminated against

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/06/2022 16:49

Orchardsandpianos · 18/06/2022 16:37

Or a busy overworked underfunded nhs can have one form to give to all patients with all relevant questions.

If this wasnt trans related we would be talking about how fragile that mans masculinity was that he stormed out rather than just tick a box to say he wasnt pregnant.

I'm really struggling to see how he was discriminated against

Not sure he was discriminated against?
I suppose I'd question why the busy overworked underfunded nhs are wasting time and endless resources on putting together contrived questionnaires that imply that trained medical staff are incapable of identifying men from women, let alone wasting time asking 60 year old men if they could be pregnant.
It's toddler level discourse.

I expect medics to be educated and able where possible to diagnose complex symptoms and identify illness and potential cures. Not apparently clueless individuals pretending they can't spot the basic differences between men and women, let alone pretending that a 60 year old man could be pregnant.
It's insulting - to them and us.

TheBiologyStupid · 18/06/2022 18:34

Yes, a US import as far as I know:

University of Michigan emeritus economics professor, Mark J. Perry, broke down the latest numbers on how many professional diversity officers are on the U of M payroll, and how much these officers make: “126 diversicrats at an average salary of $93,600 with 38 making >$100K and a shocking record-high of $430,795.” The total payroll cost for “diversity equity and inclusion” programming is over $15 million a year[...]

mobile.twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1472314581976596494

MangyInseam · 19/06/2022 00:24

TheBiologyStupid · 18/06/2022 18:34

Yes, a US import as far as I know:

University of Michigan emeritus economics professor, Mark J. Perry, broke down the latest numbers on how many professional diversity officers are on the U of M payroll, and how much these officers make: “126 diversicrats at an average salary of $93,600 with 38 making >$100K and a shocking record-high of $430,795.” The total payroll cost for “diversity equity and inclusion” programming is over $15 million a year[...]

mobile.twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1472314581976596494

So I attended a very small university with about 1000 students, quite a few years ago. They are now, like many universities here, struggling to get enough students to pay the bills. In the last five years however they have added three full time positions in the area of EDI, as well as increasingly directing their research funds into that area. All new faculty have to show some interest or research related to EDI.

TheBiologyStupid · 19/06/2022 00:38

All new faculty have to show some interest or research related to EDI.

Whereabouts are you, Mangy? I know that University of California is filtering out job applicants for academic teaching positions by examining their (compulsory) diversity statements before even looking at their academic credentials. There's now a whole business sector growing up of consultancies that will help applicants write the statements...!

TheBiologyStupid · 19/06/2022 00:48

Oops, I forgot to include a source. It's a critical essay written by Abigail Thompson, chair of mathematics at the University of California at Davis and Vice President of the American Mathematical Society, which appeared in the Society's Notices journal. (It's a pdf download, I'm afraid: www.ams.org/journals/notices/201911/rnoti-p1778.pdf )

MangyInseam · 19/06/2022 01:04

TheBiologyStupid · 19/06/2022 00:38

All new faculty have to show some interest or research related to EDI.

Whereabouts are you, Mangy? I know that University of California is filtering out job applicants for academic teaching positions by examining their (compulsory) diversity statements before even looking at their academic credentials. There's now a whole business sector growing up of consultancies that will help applicants write the statements...!

I'm in Canada. I don't know that it's ubiquitous here yet but it's common. People seemed to think math and the sciences would be immune, but that doesn't seem to be the case. They are being asked to link their work to this stuff, but also they are hiring increasingly based on meeting the push for diversity of spcified kinds. One example:

nationalpost.com/news/canada/minority-professor-denied-grants-because-he-hires-on-merit-people-are-afraid-to-think

I've always believed that universities are so important to society, but at the moment I am hesitant to advise my kids to attend.

Edilike · 19/06/2022 01:15

With you on this, @Tompariswasmyfavorite

I also suspect those on this thread attacking EDI (usually the order of initials is this in the UK - also seen DEI (more US?) but never IDE or IED - which should tell you something about how they are actually prioritised in the real world) are well-off white women.

Those of us who are from ethnic minorities, disabled etc really appreciate all of EDI - Inclusion no less than the others.

Inclusion is not the same as Equality, which is about e.g. making sure no actual laws are broken. Or Diversity, which is about making sure the organisation is employing a bunch of people who aren't all eg white privately-educated men.

But that doesn't mean it's unimportant. Inclusion is about making everyone who works for an organisation feel included, in areas where it's not about breaking the law. This also matters hugely

If you work for an organisation that never mentions or celebrates people like you, or gives them any support, that matters. There are currently threads on FWR about the National Gallery lacking pictures by women and not putting on exhibitions centred around female artists. That's not either an Equality issue - no legal obligation to do this - nor a diversity issue - assuming they employ a reasonable number of female curators. That's an inclusion issue. Does the OP agree with the National Gallery on this?

What about if a workplace social is happening - does the OP agree with 'binning' the idea of making it inclusive to all by having food options that include something vegetarians/vegans/Jews/Muslims can eat, and an alternative to alcoholic drinks for non-drinkers including Muslims? Is that gratuitous pandering to a recent American ideological import, in the OP's view? Or actually an important way to help all staff be able to feel included and welcome in the organisation?

It's important not to blame the concept of inclusion in the workplace for the fact the some TRA orgs have tried to misuse the term to in effect mean its opposite. It's no more the fault of e.g. ethnic minorities that TRAs have successfully managed to piggyback off the concept of 'inclusion' within the last few years, than it is the fault of LGB people that TRAs have successfully forced-teamed with LGB rights organisations either.

We shouldn't be throwing out the baby with the bathwater and throwing out excellent steps such as the moves towards greater LGB rights and Inclusion just because some others have tried to misuse these concepts.

What we should be doing is reclaiming them. As pointed out above, what TRAs claim as 'Inclusion' is actually its opposite - it excludes women, it excludes LGB people. The problem isn't with the concept of inclusion, which is still much needed.

It's with the misuse of the term by some to in effect mean its opposite. It's not difficult to counter - the lie that rights are not like pie is easy to counter when looking at e.g. sports, where it's very clear that literally only 1 person can win a sports race, so if that winning place is taken by a male, then a female has been excluded/harmed (well, depending on the sport, probably multiple women harmed, as everyone from 2nd place down will have done worse than they would have done otherwise). It's not possible to argue this is fine without in effect admitting you think women matter less than men, and multiple women being harmed is worth it if it means even 1 male person benefits.

That's what we should be focusing on - that underlying misogyny. NOT the harmless and beneficial policy of inclusion.