Tragic thread from detransitioner

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

Good God. Where were the medical ethics? Poor sod, how would you ever find peace with this? twitter.com/tullipr/status/1536422533230206976?s=21&t=uQXxEPdczk1h1eTnAs3Zyw

That was a painful and harrowing read.

It makes me sad and angry at the same time. It is a medical and social dereliction of duty what is going on.

I'm with a pp in wanting zero incentives to this surgery. Made me quite angry when Ricky Gervais said 'lose the cocks' (I know it was a punchline, I know it was designed to shock etc) because this is hugely lifechanging surgery and should be vanishingly rare - frankly I don't really think anyone should have it. A cousin has had serious problems after this surgery, no idea if they regret it but they've essentially got a lifelong serious medical condition from elective surgery and there's not much 'glitter family' about that.

"As he stated, he was in deep delusion so clearly not capable of making informed consent.This is exactly why stringent gate-keeping is absolutely required."

I feel completely differently to most on this thread. Reading it doesn't upset me although it's sad.

And I'm not sure the re-directed anger at doctors is valid. What did he expect? He was so delusional, that even if they had told him, he wanted it so badly, would he have taken any notice. I fear not.

I wonder how these doctors and health professionals sleep at night I really do. I understand personal responsibility but if someone is that delusional you refuse to treat them. None of these doctors would give an anorexic gastric band surgery, or cut of the limb if a person with BDD If they demanded it so why is this treatment different?

I have been nursing for a gazilion years. In the early days of what was termed gender reassignement, the pre-op care was first class, but long. Men had to live as a woman for at least 2 years while having hormone treatment and compulsory therapy. Surgery was only undertaken after full and fank discussion of pros and cons. Therapy also provided post op.
Then pressure was bought to bear to spped up this process; such issues as those mentioed here are the result.
Very sad. This is a massive, life-changing choice, not like a buying a ferrari whim...

*speed up

Were the doctors not being told theyd be seen as guilty of discrimination and so could be barred from practice under guidelines coming in from the General Medical Council if they didn't carry out the surgery? Well in the UK at least.

This is why back in the day (ie 2015ish) when I really believed that we were talking about a very small number of people with significant gender dysphoria, I used to think that Self ID was the way forward. I'd hate to think that anyone was pushed into this sort of butchery because they thought it was the only way to be accepted by society.

Now that I understand more about the trans movement, I don't accept even "fully transitioned" males as female, so I guess I still see this surgery as socially irrelevant.

Of course there are some people who are very happy with the results of their various surgeries. But we shouldn't "reward" anyone for putting themselves through this. This is why it must be clear that biology is fixed, and that no amount of hormones/surgery will actually switch your sex.

It really is horrific. The lack of informed consent - but clearly strangled at source.

I've been following Tullip for a while now. He's a very sane Geordie who has been very traumatised by all this and is being severely let down again by medical professionals as he tries to navigate how to save his bones and health in his current situation.

He also had a late diagnosis of autism. He describes experiencing a lot of cultural homophobia growing up.

He also writes and talks exceptionally well and I'm so glad he's speaking out.

A few tweets have been deleted by twitter (apparently too graphic?!) so this is the thread

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1536422533230206976.html

I don't think anyone should medically transition to be able to wear and do what they want. But that's the crux; it's all lies.

A point is being raised that the operations give a placebo affect. This is known about in the medical community; a very common shoulder op has been shown to be functionally useless but actually has a placebo effect. So patients feel it's successful.

So the placebo effect lasts for a while.

An probably lasts longer the more "acceptance" and hero worship you get.

But Tullip is very clear it wasn't a lack of acceptance that led to detransition. It was failing health and then he realised he just couldn't do it any more. I believe detrans Reddit was a factor in helping him too.

I saw a recent current stat that 30% of medical transitioned adults have now detransitioned. And 67% of adults who self id desist. I wish I could find the link for that. It's all v recent research.

God knows about the children - there's one young man who took pbs and cross sex hormones has detransitioned and describes the horror. He's now 22.

This isn't just feminism, this is medical negligence. A medical disaster.

We are starting to see the tidal wave now. Tsunami.

Surgeons make decisions on whether to carry out procedures all the time. Weighing up the reasons, risks, benefits, realistic outcomes and long term complications. What dr would carry out surgery of this kind knowing the damage being inflicted? Ethics seem to fly out the window when it comes to cosmetic surgery and not enough psychiatric treatment is available. It is nothing but horrific that physically healthy people are being given this butchery of a surgery. That this is done on the NHS is even more infuriating. People are left with a lifetime of continuing care because of needless surgery.

Consent is linked to capacity ie does the person making this decision have the mental capacity to make this decision based on their ability to understand what will happen & all the implications Good & bad. Capacity is applied on a case by case basis eg when I worked with someone with severe mental health problems he had the capacity to decide what they wanted for dinner but he didn’t have the capacity to divorce his wife for not believing in the alienes he was convinced were coming complete with an outside toilet and leaded windows on their spacecraft.

i don’t know what tulips mental capacity was to consent to surgery of that magnitude nor do I know if the full implications were explained to him but if I were him I’d be asking to see my patient records.

The late diagnosis of autism is no surprise. These are very unhappy people, uncomfortable within themselves. Such a shame. But you can't change sex. Fact. And to peddle this myth is just wrong.

"this is medical negligence."

I don't think it is. Or not all the time.
Depends how far back you go. Doctors did the operations years ago based on the best knowledge that they had at the time. It's being talked about more in the last few years. We know more about it. We know a lot more about HRT than we did years ago.

Yet, There's still hundreds of people trying to transition today and they've been told for the last few years - we don't think this is a good idea but they're not listening, they don't care. medical negligence? if We sat them down now and told them don't do this it's not good and they're not listening. They have to take personal responsibility for that. So that's not medical negligence, not now.

This is horrific, and there are more of them, hundreds.

What always makes me gasp is, when people say 'this isn't happening' and you say 'yes it is, here's one example' and the response is 'they wanted it' or 'the source isn't credible'.

Yet these same people rally and shout at anyone who asks 'why do you just believe everyone that tells you they feel like something else' as completely credible.

So credible when it is something for the ideology, but not credible when they come out the other side, completely damaged for life.

The whole thing from start to finish is a con, it destroys people and then tries to destroy anyone who points out the con.

Can't the medical professionals just say NO to carrying out the surgery? If surgery will leave people unable to urinate properly isn't that reason enough not to do it?

1600ml blood loss sounds like a frightening amount to me. Besides all the other awful outcomes including the toileting problems (which seem to echo FGM and fistula problems)

No debate!

Nobody is allowed to talk about this, and doctors would lose their jobs if they did.

This is brutal, I think the reality of this is what drives the safeguarding part of GC views.

He said he was obsessive and deeply unwell. There must be a parallel between dysphoria and anorexia / self harm. Things we wouldn't be affirming in people.

I wish there was a study along these lines and gender dysphoria was seen as a mental health condition once again.

@Oblomov22 "And I'm not sure the re-directed anger at doctors is valid. What did he expect? He was so delusional, that even if they had told him, he wanted it so badly, would he have taken any notice. I fear not."

Your comment staggers me. He certainly has the right to be angry at doctors because doctors have a duty of care which means they have a duty not proceed with life altering surgeries if the patient not compos mentis. This is why gate-keeping was so important. So called gate-keeping was mandatory before self-id to manage people like this. If someone wanted SRS they had to be in therapy and it was the therapist who would eventually determine whether the person was competent to give assent and whether SRS was the correct path. What this person needed was intensive therapy and the doctors failed him.

I saw this on Twitter yesterday, that poor poor lad :(

He was in no fit state to consent, but also he makes clear he wasn’t told what it would be like. It’s presented as what you need to be your true self and celebratory - when a person is seeing it as a lifeline to feel right in themselves, that’s so dangerous.

Consent is linked to capacity ie does the person making this decision have the mental capacity to make this decision based on their ability to understand what will happen & all the implications Good & bad.

yes and this is exactly why counselling and exploration is so important. I keep an eye on my TRA relative’s Twitter and they and their circle are still indignantly going on about conversion therapy and how it’s exactly like being gay so being questioned about it is wrong. But it’s not because with medical transition you’re taking a massive irreversible step - any step like that should come with full information and counselling to make sure you understand and can consent.

if it meant literally just being trans-gender i.e. stepping outside the prescribed stereotypes for your sex (like loads of us do) then that should be accepted without a worry. I wish they could see that they could just do that.

It’s detransitioners’ accounts like these that make you realise how important physical reality is, the reality of a sexed body, and what it does for you. By trying to be the opposite sex you take away so many amazing, highly evolved functions and you can’t have the opposite sex’s equivalent, you’re just left with a harmed body that can’t do what it should, and causes you pain.

Surely all who encourage this bear responsibility. How can anyone consent to this? If I am asked to hurt someone, begged to, then no I won’t do it.

I can understand why blockers, hormones and surgery are promoted in the US against the best interests of the patients, it equals profit for private health care.

I don’t understand how this is happening in the NHS which in theory takes the opposite approach ie keeping costs down due to it being funded by the state. The NHS is now making people sick with complications of unnecessary medication and surgery which will cost the tax payer I don’t know what amount. It is not only medically negligent but a negligence of best use of government funds.

Of course it's medical negligence. Doctors and other HCPs in this country don't just do what the patient asks them to if it's clearly not in the patient's best interests, otherwise we would see patients with eating disorders being assisted to restrict calorie intake to starvation levels, patients with florid schizophrenia being allowed to jump out of windows to test their flying ability, patients with body integrity identity disorder getting amputations on request and so on.

It's complicated in countries like the US where money is a big factor. In theory it should be easier here for NHS HCPs to say 'no' on grounds of lack of evidence and also budget constraints.

I am sickened that the NHS was responsible for this. At present large numbers of NHS trusts are parading rainbows as they seek "Rainbow Badge Accreditation", a scheme overseen by Stonewall and the LGBT Foundation, squandering money on rainbow road crossings and signage. How many of the people proudly displaying their rainbow credentials with lanyards and badges know anything about where this leads?

I feel desperately sad for this young man. His health and his life have been wrecked. It is shameful.