Reasons to Resist "Third Spaces"

[GCRich]

Obviously I am not proposing that men who identify as trans should be in women's spaces. But what are the reasons to resist third spaces? I'm not looking for a debate - there are abviously reasons for third spaces - I'm just trying to consider whether there may be a fair few good reasons to resist them.

(1) It is tough enough on small businesses that they (rightfully) have to provide third spaces to people (disabled people) who literally cannot access single sex spaces. Giving them further obligations based on feelings not physical need is an unreasonable requirement. It is also tough on the taxpayer when government has to provide third spaces. I can imagine some small business owners becoming transphobic when they realise they have to spend thousands of pounds on building works for a "problem" that has never arisen in their workplace and which counters their legally held views that TW are men, end of.

(2) Some women with trans identities might feel obliged to use third spaces and thus find themselves at greater risk from men that they would have been had they just used women's spaces. The very existence of third spaces might increase the risk of harm to some women.

(3) Trans women don't get validation from third spaces so they are 100% unwanted by the main people who theoretically need them.

(4) We need to bring people together as much as possible - not divide them. Single sex spaces make huge amounts of sense for various reasons. Providing one accessible toilet makes sense (whereas making every single male or female toilet accessible makes much less sense as it would cost too much and take up too much room and would be a disproportionate way of providing for the disabled). But dividing people even further by creating more spaces - when the truth is we are all simply men or women at the end of the day - makes no sense.

(5) When a group ignores boundaries and the truth and courteous debate and instead seeks to bully and threaten and make people feel uncomfortable then one has a moral obligation to resist giving them an inch, for to give an inch is to reward their behaviour, which can only risk encouraging them and people like them. It reminds me of the slogan "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

(6) The third spaces would risk becoming a target from those men who do genuinely hate trans people. Trans people are at risk from transphobic violence (I am not sure whether they are significantly at risk in the UK, I doubt it, but the risk is there) wherever they are. Walking down the street, in the appropriate single sex spacecs for their sexed bodies, in opposite sex spaces, in a pub, in a shopping centre - they could be attacked out of the blue anywhere. But to actually create a space which violent transphobes know to go to if they want a victim could create more harm than good.

There is a group of TW campaigning for third spaces, Miranda Yardley is part of it. I believe Debbie Hayton also?

There are also many women who say they are perfectly happy to use mixed sex spaces, plus the parent/child need, family group need, carer and ambulant disabled person where they don't need direct help but someone in calling distance to make sure they're safe, etc etc. It would be a genuine step forward in accessibility if done right, and presents everyone with an alternative to sex based provision if this is uncomfortable for them.

It just needs to come with respecting that some people require sex based spaces for equality of access. And that's the real sticking point.

When a group ignores boundaries and the truth and courteous debate and instead seeks to bully and threaten and make people feel uncomfortable then one has a moral obligation to resist giving them an inch, for to give an inch is to reward their behaviour, which can only risk encouraging them and people like them. It reminds me of the slogan "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

For me, this is the really salient point.

I was listening to Andrew Doyle’s podcast discussion with Arielle Scarcella today and they both made the point that yes, thee is still illegal discrimination against transgender people, but that the complete capitulation that TRAs are demanding is disproportionate.

it was interesting hearing two gay people discuss the impact of TRA demands on the discrimination gay people also face.

No longer give a damn about trans people's demands. Fuck off out of single SEX spaces, end of.

Was this a new build with appropriate and representative planning?

Or were dis/proportionate spaces taken from either the men's and women's to make this inclusive space?

Well they would solve alot of problems.in theory although I don't think they newing in schools. Children need adults to protect them until they figure out how to protect them selves. Kids shouldn't be put in the position of having to choose between their safety and being good ally or validation of their identity.

But we all know they'd go unused because the point is not safety its validation. It would be a waste of time and money. Stonewall could have done this years ago and be done by now. If theor own people won't solve the problems why should anyone else bother at their own expense

Yes to men's, women's and 'All inclusive'
But not good enough for anti-women activists

Which leads you to wonder why these anti women activists can only be satisfied by seeing females having lost .

They have to have less.
They have to be subordinated.
They have to be excluded if non compliant.

They have to be willing to be controlled or they have to be punished. Answers that work for everyone not only won't do, they are unsatisfyingly wrong because there's no loss involved that rights the original sin of being female.

I often wonder how much this lot are all secretly Catholics in denial.

Everyone should use the toilet for their sex. Easy solution.

During one of the parliament committee meetings Rosa Friedman pointed out that if you want to change the status quo (sexed toilets) then the onus is on those wanting the change to prove that it will be safe for women's toilets to be used by others. I've been watching to see and so far it's not going at all well. I no longer care about any trans demands. I am holding the line for women and children.

Or we start building truly accessible toilets. Completely enclosed, can be used by a single person at a time whether man, woman, wheelchair user, parents with any age of children, trans etc As someone mentioned above these things are tough at the start but quickly become the norm. A good example is ensuites in hotels. At one time almost unknown, now very few rooms without them

Then you have the worry of anyone who say, has epilepsy, asthma, allergies, miscarriages etc where being in a fully enclosed space with no gap under the door, well they could lie there for hours in trouble and not be seen.

U less you alarm every single one? But who's gonna pay for that amd staff it?

Hence the need to retain single sex standard cubicles and contained single unit rooms that are mixed sex/gender neutral and disabled accessible toilets.

Third space needed in addition to the two already existing: sex based and disabled accessible. People then choose the best fit, and everyone has a minimum of two options with an alternative if they prefer not to use the sex based facilities.

And at that point, everyone can stop moaning about it, and has no further excuse for the relentless predation on anything female only required for their sex based access that is solely about misogyny.

I’d definitely support 3rd space toilets. I would use them when going out with my kids as the oldest is 8 but large for his age but gets v anxious going places by himself and due to pandemic has not had that many opportunities to go out in public places and use the toilet with DH. We need more of them. For smaller venues fully enclosed lockable rooms with sink that are unisex are fine.

Already for several years I have been to small venues with a corridor of unisex fully enclosed lockable rooms with sinks.

I can understand those who wish to maintain single-sex toilets but as long as these single-sex toilets continue to exist I genuinely don’t understand why anybody would care whether mixed-sex toilets are also available? So long as there isn’t a law that trans people have to use these spaces instead of those that match their sex what does it matter? Surely it’s up to transmen/ transwomen to decide whether they’d feel safer in a mixed-sex toilet or the toilet that matches their sex and not for others to protest against them because they might be less safe?

If you don’t wish to use a mixed-sex toilet then obviously don’t, but I don’t see how offering them as an option could be a bad thing? Mixed-sex toilets already exist in lots of places (Eg: trains, planes, smaller restaurants/ shops etc, accessible toilets) and I don’t think in most cases they cause any issue?

This is a very strange objection to fully enclosed toilets considering they already exist in lots of settings such as on trains or in small cafes. Even where toilets are single sex they can still be fully enclosed if they are in a smaller location where only one or two toilets are being provided - not all toilets currently exist as rows of cubicles with shared sinks. Currently almost all accessible toilets are already fully enclosed - you can just include an emergency pull cord in the toilet for people to use if needed.

In some settings they couod pr8ve problematic. That's not to say that they don't also have advantages. But a set up like that at say a school or a college where not only do the children and teenagers have no choice to be they do have disadvantages.

We have a toilet like this at work for customer use. On occasion people have shot up in there.

Privacy is great for so many reasons . But unless you have an alarm in every single toilet you do also run the risk of people getting sick.hurt or injured or attacked in fully enclosed toilets.

In public recreational facilities I can make a choice to be there or not to be there.

In.a school, college,.hospital,workplace etc not so much.

I think its something like 1 in.3 or one in 4 miscarriages happen/start in public toilets. If no one knows you are there as no one can see feet under the door you could be there fir hours.

Toilets can become a haven for sex, drugs, vaping, etc

Anywhere where the establishment is responsible fir the health and wellbeing of the people there will need to think carefully and conduct risk assessments on the set up.