Reasons to Resist "Third Spaces"

[GCRich]

Obviously I am not proposing that men who identify as trans should be in women's spaces. But what are the reasons to resist third spaces? I'm not looking for a debate - there are abviously reasons for third spaces - I'm just trying to consider whether there may be a fair few good reasons to resist them.

(1) It is tough enough on small businesses that they (rightfully) have to provide third spaces to people (disabled people) who literally cannot access single sex spaces. Giving them further obligations based on feelings not physical need is an unreasonable requirement. It is also tough on the taxpayer when government has to provide third spaces. I can imagine some small business owners becoming transphobic when they realise they have to spend thousands of pounds on building works for a "problem" that has never arisen in their workplace and which counters their legally held views that TW are men, end of.

(2) Some women with trans identities might feel obliged to use third spaces and thus find themselves at greater risk from men that they would have been had they just used women's spaces. The very existence of third spaces might increase the risk of harm to some women.

(3) Trans women don't get validation from third spaces so they are 100% unwanted by the main people who theoretically need them.

(4) We need to bring people together as much as possible - not divide them. Single sex spaces make huge amounts of sense for various reasons. Providing one accessible toilet makes sense (whereas making every single male or female toilet accessible makes much less sense as it would cost too much and take up too much room and would be a disproportionate way of providing for the disabled). But dividing people even further by creating more spaces - when the truth is we are all simply men or women at the end of the day - makes no sense.

(5) When a group ignores boundaries and the truth and courteous debate and instead seeks to bully and threaten and make people feel uncomfortable then one has a moral obligation to resist giving them an inch, for to give an inch is to reward their behaviour, which can only risk encouraging them and people like them. It reminds me of the slogan "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

(6) The third spaces would risk becoming a target from those men who do genuinely hate trans people. Trans people are at risk from transphobic violence (I am not sure whether they are significantly at risk in the UK, I doubt it, but the risk is there) wherever they are. Walking down the street, in the appropriate single sex spacecs for their sexed bodies, in opposite sex spaces, in a pub, in a shopping centre - they could be attacked out of the blue anywhere. But to actually create a space which violent transphobes know to go to if they want a victim could create more harm than good.

@GCRich 'I can imagine some small business owners becoming transphobic when they realise they have to spend thousands of pounds on building works for a "problem" that has never arisen in their workplace and which counters their legally held views that TW are men, end of.'

Call me cynical, but I see it as more likely that some small business owners would become more misogynistic & blame the women for not just taking on the owner's problem, budging up & letting TW share their toilets.

My thoughts exactly. Very sensible.

I am 100% in favour of single sex spaces. This thread has nothing to do with single sex spaces, it is SOLELY about whether 3rd spaces are desirable.

On my point (4) I was just trying to get across that we are all humans together and that we should all be treated the same as much as possible. Two obvious examples of where we treat people differently - rightly - is providing wider toilets for wheelchair users and making toilets single sex not mixed sex. My problem is with creating more division. Why should be divide the group of toilet users who can be defined as "able bodied men" into sub-groups and give them different facilities? If we are to given some men another space based on their identity (ie "I see myself as a woman so I don;t want to use the men's") then why not to other men (eg "I am meticulous about hygene, unlike many men. I require special toilets for people who leave public toilet cublicles spotless on exit")

I disagree with your points because:

1. Small businesses often only have a single toilet with adequate provision for both sexes as well as being accessible and single occupancy. They wouldn't need to change a thing
2. Wouldn't be an issue if messaging, signage and implementation was clear - toilet options are women (single sex), men (single sex), mixed sex for anyone unable to use the toilet which is provided for their sex.
3. Lots of trans people don't want validation. They deserve to be catered for. As do dads with daughters, mothers with sons.
4. Provision of public toilets which provide privacy and dignity for those unable to use single sex spaces is not segregation (which would be bad), it is meeting the specific needs of some groups (trans people, families etc) and that is a good thing.
5. Trans people are not terrorists - hyperbole really doesn't help anyone. Besides which, we do negotiate with terrorists. Peace in Northern Ireland was only achieved once people were willing to negotiate with those they considered terrorists.
6. Prevalence of being trans in the UK is so low that using mixed-sex toilets would mostly mean seeing dads with their daughters or mothers with sons. Unlikely to be a place for actual transphobes to try to find a trans person.

@Artichokeleaves

"I just expect that all groups get that consideration and care for their needs"

Sorry to be blunt, but you don't. Where does it stop? Why should TW and TM be forced to share the same toilets? Why should NB people share with either? Why should Christians get there own special toilets away from muslims?

@ifIwerenotanandroid
No, because single sex provision for women means that even violent men generally don't go into women's toilets, if they think they will be seen going in there

Violent misogynists actively looking for a female victim are absolutely known to attack women/girls in womens toilets. Single sex toilets are a mild deterrent to violent men. It’s safer for women/girls to have them than not have them. But I wouldn’t call them particularly safe.

Well obviously what those third spaces look like is something as yet to be determined, but it seems unlikely that rows of stalls are going to work and it's more likely to be self contained single room units that would help and suit more people. And I'd suggest that as yet neither Christian nor Muslim people have raised any issues about privacy and dignity being a problem for them in sharing facilities together and ending up with some unable to access a resource at all in the way that it is for some biologically female people in using a mixed sex space.

But ok, if you don't agree you're not compelled to, diversity of opinion is fine.

A separate toilet for different groups women, men, non binary, trans men, transwomen, disabled..... unicorns not feeling any of the above day

Or do a individual toilet with access to all so not a group toilet with cubicles/urinals and separate for disability since some people require more room or a carer in with them.

My only real issue with it is that you give no consideration to those men (and I am sure that there must be some) who want to have single sex spaces away from women

Well as I said, not my problem. I don't see a large number of men standing up for my rights. So why hold me to a different, higher standard of care?

but I have no problem with you not having the time or energy to fight that theoretical cause!

Why thank you. I shall take that as permission to carry in working for vulnerable women in crisis.

3rd spaces and single sex are the way to go in my opinion

we went the the Hammersmith lyric the other day and they’d made the ladies into mixed sex but (according to ds1) there were single sex toilets on another floor

so id be happy with that

and according to other posters there are a lot of women that would be as happy as larry to use a mixed sex toilet so that would be cool

@GCRich "Therefore trans people need to be in their own single sex spaces,"

How so? The men who claim they are not men seem quite content to render female single sex spaces to mixed sex. The women who claim they are not women seem quite content to render male single sex spaces to mixed sex. Mixed sex is the environment that is preferred by those who reject their natural sex. So an additional alternative mixed sex space is all that is needed. Where this cannot be done the male facilities should be rendered mixed sex.

@GCRich I don't think anyone is suggesting another space 'just' for transwomen plus another one 'just' for transmen. Or any of the other genders that exist or have yet to be discovered. It isn't an option unless a business has the space and money to accommodate.
If trans people don't feel comfortable using the toilet allocated to their sex, a 3rd unisex option is the only practical solution if you intend to keep single sex spaces as well, whether they find that is validating enough is not anyone else's problem.
There needs to be a single sex option which women can use and challenge the presence of males in (and the other way around).
You can't justify not using a 3rd space based on safety and dignity for trans people if the only real solution to separate men and transwomen (gender based spaces) reduces those for women instead.
Men and women are not the same and that's why we have single sex provisions in place. Equally as important yes but not the same.

Where does it stop? What if TMs and TWs start demanding separate spaces?

Why should trans people be specially accommodated? Plenty of people don't like public toilets. Should effeminate men who feel uncomfortable in male toilets be entitled to their own special spaces, or should they be lumped in with the trans? I can see a lot of women taking their 8 year old son into the women's toilets in preference to following a TW into the mixed sex toilets.

I would strongly argued that mixed sex toilets for parents with children should be provided before and in addition to mixed sex spaces for trans people.

If trans people don't feel comfortable using the toilet allocated to their sex, a 3rd unisex option is NOT the only practical solution - telling them to get on with using the single sex spaces every other person has to use is a perfectly reasonable response. Not every demand is a reasonable one!

I wonder what percentage of trans people would use mixed sex spaces provided for them, and what percentage of TW and TM would continue to use the women's? Would some TW continue to use the men's on the basis that they know they were never welcome in women's spaces and why should they make TM feel uncomfortable in trans spaces?

So an additional alternative mixed sex space is all that is needed. Where this cannot be done the male facilities should be rendered mixed sex

yep

in the theatre the mens bogs were mixed sex as well but I couldn’t go in there cos it’s mainly urinals, for some reason (dh reckons laziness) there were loads of men in the ladies, including ds1 which was a bit weird

@GCRich I think that you missed my point. Right now we have basically lost all of our single sex spaces (atleast here in Scotland) and they are effectively mixed sex already because a certain lobby group has convinced our government that it's against the equality act to do anything other than have single gender spaces (ie mixed sex) so if it takes making 3rd spaces available to trans people and/or making it a criminal offence for anyone over 7 to enter the opposite sex facilities (barring medical emergency etc) then I will take it

@GCRich A unisex facility would allow anyone including effeminate men and families, it isn't trans specific. Women are used to very young male children being brought into female spaces, but boys at a certain age will need to use the mens or a unisex facility.

Luckily I think it's pretty obvious to even transacivists that a toilet for every gender can't be built so I don't think that's a valid concern even if they start asking for it.

Everyone should use their sex based toilet, but if there has to be a compromise to keep most spaces single sex then a 3rd space option should be explored. If a unisex space is legally mandated then trans people have two options (including their own sex toilet) and women should be given the rights to challenge transwomen in the single sex spaces again. We should be able to now but that isn't the reality.

Entirely fair. I am coming at this from the point of view that single sex spaces need to be provided under the law of the land and any normal moral perspective, and that 3rd spaces are a simple add-on option that we can choose to take.

I agree with all this.

I can understand the 'that's not my problem to solve' position, but I can't see any justification for opposing third spaces which enable women's single sex spaces to be single sex spaces.

Why is it important to you to find reasons to resist them?

The point of not allowing trans women in female spaces is to avoid infringing against womens' sex-based rights. Achieving that, but then deciding that it isn't enough for you - that you still then have to make sure the trans people don't "get" something they shouldn't, for some vague debateable philosophical reasons even when it makes not a blind bit of difference to your ability to enjoy your protected space safely - starts to cross over into genuine transphobia.

I'm happy for trans people themselves you work out what's the best way of meeting their requirements, if they can do that in a way that doesn't compromise anyone else's.

If a TW genuinely believes that TW are women and TM are men then why on earth would a TW share a space with men when he should be able to just use the women's instead of the mixed sex space? If he doesn't genuinely believe that TW are women then why can't he just use the men's?

Will TW and TM feel comfortable sharing a mixed sex space with a 6'4" blokey looking bloke who couldn't be arsed to walk another 10 ft to the gents, or who decided to accompany their wife and 6 year old son into the mixed sex facilities (the son prefers to go to the toilet with his mum than with his dad - but the dad joins them because he is concerned about his wife and child being safe in a space where men might well be)?

I struggle to see how mixed sex spaces for trans people solves much at all other than keeping them out of opposite sex spaces (and keeping men out of women's spaces should be an absolute given irrespective of the existence of third spaces, so it's not really solving a problem).

I can see the benefit of mixed sex "parent and child" toilets.

I think that my issue is this. I don't understand why people keep bringing up third spaces. Men and women don't want them (other than tangentially wanting them if it is the only way to protect single sex spaces - which it isn't, because single sex spaces can be protected by trans people using the correct sex toilets). Trans people don't want them (they - TW - want validation, I have never - to my recollection - seen the trans community campaigning for 3rd spaces. They - TM - no idea what they want as their views aren't aired. My guess is that most TM want the safety of women's spaces unless their desire for validation outweighs their desire for safety).

Why do we talk about 3rd spaces when they are unwanted and solve no-one's problem (not even women's - why would you expect TW who ignores women's boundaries because he wants the validation of being in women's spaces - to start respecting women's boundaries because they've been given a mixed sex toilet to use?)

Just to check your preference is to keep single sex spaces?

Can we not just have men’s, women’s and ‘all inclusive’ toilets? This was the case at a school I worked at and it was a great system.

@GCRich There is a problem right now with transwomen in womens spaces regardless of what the law says as other posters have already pointed out, so yes the mixed space option is very important and could solve a massive issue. There are TW out there who will attempt to use female toilets regardless and currently women cannot object or call the police, they'd be likely to be arrested themselves for a hate crime.

Ultimately there is no option that would please all parties 100%, this is a solution that would be relatively easy to implement, allows for single sex spaces and gives trans people an option outside of the sex they've identified out of.

This compromise may be what allows women to say no again with legal backing, it shouldn't be that way but its how it is.

The idea of third spaces was put forward as a negotiation point / offering to appease the men that wanted to ensure that women were not allowed our own spaces. What we got was that they couldn’t possibly manage anywhere else but in the female facilities. Ok . negotiation over. Now I and many others are determined that such men need to campaign as men to make sure they are accepted into their own sex based spaces. We will defend our own to the end, it is no longer something we will engage with in the spirit of compromise.