Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Joyce Essay

56 replies

Mollyollydolly · 09/06/2022 22:02

Helen's made her essay free this week for obvious reasons. Thought it deserved it's own thread. Do read it, it's excellent.
www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-8/

OP posts:
Calmyourselfdown · 09/06/2022 22:21

This reply has been deleted

not in the spirit

RoseslnTheHospital · 09/06/2022 22:32

This reply has been deleted

not in the spirit

You may well disagree with the content but it objectively isn't "drivel".

IcakethereforeIam · 09/06/2022 22:40

Intelligent, pertinent and compassionate.

ChesneyLives · 09/06/2022 22:42

Great article thanks so much for sharing OP

SpinstileTurnstile · 09/06/2022 22:42

There seems to be a determined effort on all sorts of threads at the moment, since Monday, to goad posters into reporting.

Rude comments appear, and get ruder and ruder, without substance.

Not biting.

ChesneyLives · 09/06/2022 22:43

Grey rock..

SpinstileTurnstile · 09/06/2022 22:43

Thank you for posting the article - will read it shortly.

TopKnotch · 09/06/2022 22:52

I found that incredibly sensible, clear and well thought out with a huge amount of consideration and compassion for those on 'the other side.'

Could you be more specific as to the elements you thought were drivel?

Hawkins001 · 09/06/2022 22:55

This reply has been deleted

not in the spirit

A more constructive criticism and analysis would be more useful.

Cailleach1 · 09/06/2022 23:01

Oh, that is indeed an excellent essay. Back to a saner world based on reality, that isn't trying to damage the lives and futures of women and girls.

RenegadeMatron · 09/06/2022 23:04

Can people please not let themselves be goaded by @Calmyourselfdown ?

Unfortunately for that person it definitely is not drivel.

Fantastic article.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/06/2022 23:04

A woman really should not have to cope with being called genocidal because she says men should stop identifying into women’s spaces, and doctors should stop sterilising children.

Well said Helen.

nepeta · 09/06/2022 23:06

This part is thought-provoking: The reversal(s) that have taken place in the recent years:

"Only if you concretise the invented cis/trans binary and erase the real male/female one can you even pretend to think that the path to a world with “fewer trans people” is mass slaughter.

You have to argue, despite all the evidence that “trans” is an invented category unknown outside modern Western societies, that it is innate, immutable and eternal, while that of “female” is either non-existent or irrelevant.

(To grasp the full outrageousness of this reversal, remember that we actually do have “fewer female people” in the world than we should, because of sex-selective abortion, female infanticide and other horrific forms of woman-hatred. But until recently nobody at all was trans-identified, and in most places that is still the case.)"

I'm not quite sure if I'd call the cis/trans binary entirely invented, but it's certainly true that it is a recent way of looking at these issues, and that it has happened at roughly the same time as the erasure of the female sex.

Another recent reversal is the way the sex caste 'women' was turned into the privileged 'cis' part of the new gender identity class 'women.'

When you think of that it's rather astonishing that many now accept the idea, given that this privilege would then apply to, say, most girls and women in Afghanistan where they clearly are considerably less privileged than any Afghani males who identify as women but stay in the closet.

SarahSnow · 09/06/2022 23:10

It doesn't read very well.

Have to say I got bored halfway through and stopped reading.

Mollyollydolly · 09/06/2022 23:16

The reason so many 'activists' have Helen in their sights is so obvious from that article. It is very difficult to argue with so much compassion, reason and clearly thought out arguments. Hence the goading. Helen is very much a threat because she is so obviously a compassionate, clever, articulate woman. And don't they know it.

OP posts:
jhuizinga · 09/06/2022 23:17

That's an extremely thoughtful essay from Helen. So much so that some readers obviously can't cope with it. To anyone invested in reality and wanting to help vulnerable people, it's full of sound ideas clearly expressed.

FemaleAndLearning · 10/06/2022 08:00

Good essay well articulated. Just like JKs essay though many soundbite people won't get to the end. I'm invested so I did make it to the end. I agree with her that we can't ignore female babies and foetuses being gotten rid of. This is because of their sex not any gender identity.

sowiwag · 10/06/2022 09:00

SarahSnow · 09/06/2022 23:10

It doesn't read very well.

Have to say I got bored halfway through and stopped reading.

I wonder ...

In the light of comments such as the following (randomly picked, representative): "sensible, clear and well thought out" ... "Intelligent, pertinent and compassionate." ... "Great article" ... "Fantastic article." ... "an extremely thoughtful essay" ... "well articulated" ...

... I wonder: can you grasp the possibility, SarahSnow, that the problem might be, not with the article, but with you? - That you suffer from a certain amount of (how to put this?) cognitive deficit in your attempted assessment?

[Of course there will be unkind people who deny this possibility, thinking you simply prejudiced, on the grounds that no-one could be that stupid. But, well, I wonder.]

It is - and clearly is - such a well-written piece, I can't help but wonder. What d'you think, SarahSnow?

Beowulfa · 10/06/2022 09:22

Thanks for the link and thanks to Helen for a well-argued free read.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 10/06/2022 09:33

In my opinion Helen Joyce takes the prize for combining compassion, rational analysis and clear communication.

As others have said, there is a reason why some have posted negative remarks without any examples or arguments against her essay.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 10/06/2022 09:34

I admire Helen Joyce so much. She has unequivocally used her influence for good, even when her actions carried personal risk to her career and her reputation.

I wanted to copy and highlight practically the whole essay, but this resonated with me

A woman really should not have to cope with being called genocidal because she says men should stop identifying into women’s spaces, and doctors should stop sterilising children. And making these arguments is so much harder when you’re forced to use female words like “girl”, “woman” and “she” for trans-identified boys and men, and male words for trans-identified girls and women.

I have been made to feel cruel for using sex based pronouns for trans identified individuals (let's face it, men. the women tend not to make such a fuss). But people who want me to pretend I perceive them differently to the way they are, to pretend that I can't tell what sex they are, are the unreasonable ones. As are those who enforce it (take note @MNHQ).

Hagiography · 10/06/2022 09:35

Thanks, thats a really good essay. Thoughtful and eloquent.

Although I must say Helen smells like poo and she pulled my hair so I hate her.

Clymene · 10/06/2022 09:36

That's a really clear and powerful piece of writing.

I have immense sympathy for anyone who struggles to understand it. To have such poor reading comprehension must make navigating the world very difficult.

Hagiography · 10/06/2022 09:38

I hate to come over all nostalgic, but the flying monkeys aren't what they used to be. In my day, we had proper detractors.

Clymene · 10/06/2022 09:40

Hagiography · 10/06/2022 09:38

I hate to come over all nostalgic, but the flying monkeys aren't what they used to be. In my day, we had proper detractors.

I know. Don't put up much of a fight do they?

Swipe left for the next trending thread