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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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94 replies

tabbycatstripy · 05/06/2022 19:46

Sally Hines has tweeted to say, ‘Interrupting my holiday silence to say that Helen Joyce is an absolute disgrace. Anyone who does not condemn her recent tirade is complicit in eugenicism.’

Helen Joyce says SH needs to delete, retract and apologise or she will take legal action, no discussion.

Is Sally going to court?

I know I’ll help out with the crowdfunder just to see her try to explain how trying to resolve dysphoria is eugenics.

OP posts:
tabbycatstripy · 06/06/2022 15:22

‘If the argument that trans kids are invalid, due to the Tavi being rubbish at what theyre supposed to do, that is an exceptionally weak one.’

Then show me your argument. What ‘best practice’ data are you referring to? Provide links, please.

OP posts:
SunbowRainshine31 · 06/06/2022 15:26

tabbycatstripy · 06/06/2022 15:22

‘If the argument that trans kids are invalid, due to the Tavi being rubbish at what theyre supposed to do, that is an exceptionally weak one.’

Then show me your argument. What ‘best practice’ data are you referring to? Provide links, please.

Thats just whataboutery and deflection.

There are global standards of care, you can google them, and if you can find a single study that suggests desistence is more than 2% post 2013 diagnostic criteria, you will earn the right to be called a magician.

LK1972 · 06/06/2022 15:27

Oh yeah, this 'country that trans healthcare is among the worst... isnt relevant to the global treatment of trans kids', really?

You state UK trans healthcare is among the worst. Compared to which country/countries please?

UK NHS pediatric care pathway for children with gender identity issues is irrelevant, you hear people, irrelevant. Thanks, we will just pretend we and our children clamoring to medicalise themselves for life live 'globally', not in UK.

tabbycatstripy · 06/06/2022 15:29

It’s not whataboutery. The only medical service providing this ‘care’ in this country has not kept adequate records or data. You claim there is international best practice data. I’m not googling anything for your argument. Make it yourself.

OP posts:
titchy · 06/06/2022 15:34

Sunbow when one enters a debate, as you have here, it is your responsibility to provide the evidence. Telling those on the opposing side to 'Google it' does not inform anyone. Even the prime minister doesn't resort to that in PMQs. Do you think you'd convince a year 6 kid in a class debate with that technique? It certainly won't wash here.

Evidence always, please. Otherwise we draw our own conclusions from the lack thereof.

LK1972 · 06/06/2022 15:36

The evidence for using puberty blocking drugs to treat young people struggling with their gender identity is "very low", an official review has found.
The National Institute of Health and Care Excellence (NICE) said existing studies of the drugs were small and "subject to bias and confounding". But we should definitely believe those randoms on the internet that state 'There is no evidence the current post-2013 criteria is not robust and successful.', and it's just Tavi being rubbish.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 06/06/2022 15:41

FemaleAndLearning · 05/06/2022 20:28

Eugenics? If girls are having hysterectomies to become boys and boys are inverting their penises to make a vagina aren't they sterilising themselves and carrying eugenics out on themselves as a group?

Good point.

If they are all sterile, then that is eugenics in itself isn't it?

NecessaryScene · 06/06/2022 15:41

'There is no evidence the current post-2013 criteria is not robust and successful.'

You know, "there's no evidence this new treatment is not harmful" isn't really the way we usually approach clinical trials. Especially for treating physically healthy children.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 06/06/2022 15:43

SunbowRainshine31 · 06/06/2022 15:26

Thats just whataboutery and deflection.

There are global standards of care, you can google them, and if you can find a single study that suggests desistence is more than 2% post 2013 diagnostic criteria, you will earn the right to be called a magician.

How come Finland and Sweden have now stopped giving puberty blockers to kids then? In this 'global standard of care?

NecessaryScene · 06/06/2022 15:44

You know, "there's no evidence this new treatment is not harmful" isn't really the way we usually approach clinical trials.

Gah - "there's no evidence this new treatment is not effective", I mean, of course.

Too many negatives. We are of course looking for evidence it is effective. Which has not been produced. Even when people were dragged to court to produce it.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 06/06/2022 15:51

So the reasons why almost every kid that gets puberty blockers goes on to cross-sex hormones, is because they are the ones that would have persisted, even in the outdated studies.

How can that be proven?

Another theory is that because their brain development has been stunted by the blockers, they are effectively kept at the age they were when they started the blockers and they haven't developed the thinking to move past that. Plus the fact that once you are on that medical pathway, there is perhaps more pressure to keep going, to continue to be the trans child that people have already invested in and because your body hasn't physically changed, you can't get to that 'acceptance' stage anyway. Like if you are a female and you hate your breasts and the idea of periods makes you sick, then if you reach the age of 18 and you still don't have breasts and you haven't had a period due to blockers, and your brain has not matured as it should, then it's likely that you will want to keep on that path, rather than suddenly come off blockers?

There is no proof either way of any of it.

MagnoliaTaint · 06/06/2022 16:14

SunbowRainshine31 · 06/06/2022 15:26

Thats just whataboutery and deflection.

There are global standards of care, you can google them, and if you can find a single study that suggests desistence is more than 2% post 2013 diagnostic criteria, you will earn the right to be called a magician.

Do you mean the WPATH standards of care?

This WPATH?

reduxx.info/top-trans-medical-association-collaborated-with-castration-child-abuse-fetishists/

Datun · 06/06/2022 16:25

Just in case sunbow doesn't read it.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH),
the international association which sets guidelines for the medical ‘transitioning’ of children, has been collaborating with participants of a fetish forum that hosts and produces fictional child pornography and extreme sadomasochistic content.

Helleofabore · 06/06/2022 16:33

All studies that are shared to undermine trans kids are pre-2013, or based on follow-ups from people after 2013, but were diagnosed pre-2013.

Every single one.

There is no evidence the current post-2013 criteria is not robust and successful.

Oh. That is brilliant. I am laughing at this.

So.... Tavistock, nor Dr Hilary Cass, could not find one recent study that said that the current diagnosis and treatment is 'robust'.

Yet, you are here confidently denouncing studies you have not listed as being irrelevant?

Brilliant stuff. Give us more!

Tell us.... what exactly is the Dutch Protocol based on? And how has it been modified for current treatment paths in the UK?

Link us up to all the studies you speak of.

FOJN · 06/06/2022 16:57

The kids that make irreversible changes, ie hormones, almost all DO NOT DESIST.

There are nearly 32,000 members on the detrans subreddit (it was 28,000 just a couple of weeks ago) and a shocking number of them have taken hormones and had surgery. Where are you getting your information from to claim that nearly all children who undergo irreversible "treatment" do not desist?

Clearly Reddit is not a reliable source but you haven't offered one either. A major failing of children's GID services is the lack of follow up and data collection.

We were not treating as many children with PB and cross sex hormones prior to 2013 because social contagion hadn't really taken hold so we are now conducting a live experiment on children and the adults running the experiment either have no interest in gathering evidence to justify their actions or they would prefer we did not know about the outcome of this experiment.

MagnoliaTaint · 06/06/2022 16:58

While we're on the subject of WPATH:

'Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist who operated on reality-television star Jazz Jennings; and Erica Anderson, a clinical psychologist at the University of California San Francisco’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic.

In the course of their careers, both have seen thousands of patients. Both are board members of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the organization that sets the standards worldwide for transgender medical care. And both are transgender women.'

...

'When I asked Anderson if she believes that psychological effects of puberty blockers are reversible, she said: “I’m not sure.” When asked whether children in the early stages of puberty should be put on blockers, Bowers said: “I’m not a fan.”

When I asked Bowers if she still thought puberty blockers were a good idea, from a surgical perspective, she said: “This is typical of medicine. We zig and then we zag, and I think maybe we zigged a little too far to the left in some cases.” She added “I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockade thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.”

I asked Bowers whether she believed WPATH had been welcoming to a wide variety of doctors’ viewpoints — including those concerned about risks, skeptical of puberty blockers, and maybe even critical of some of the surgical procedures?

“There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there’s no room for dissent,” Bowers said. “I think that’s a mistake.”'

...

'Anderson agreed that we’re likely to see more regret among this teenage-girl population. “It is my considered opinion that due to some of the — let’s see, how to say it? what word to choose? — due to some of the, I’ll call it just ‘sloppy,’ sloppy healthcare work, that we’re going to have more young adults who will regret having gone through this process. And that is going to earn me a lot of criticism from some colleagues, but given what I see — and I’m sorry, but it’s my actual experience as a psychologist treating gender variant youth — I’m worried that decisions will be made that will later be regretted by those making them.”

What, exactly, was sloppy about the healthcare work? “Rushing people through the medicalization, as you and others have cautioned, and failure — abject failure — to evaluate the mental health of someone historically in current time, and to prepare them for making such a life-changing decision,” Anderson said.'

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle?s=r

MagnoliaTaint · 06/06/2022 17:01

I nearly posted the whole article. I highly recommend it.

MagnoliaTaint · 06/06/2022 17:04

Erica Anderson, again:

'‘This has gone too far. It’s going to get worse. I don’t want any part of it,'
...

'“A fair number of kids are getting into it because it’s trendy,'

nypost.com/2022/04/15/transitions-have-gone-too-far-trans-psychologist/

SpindleInTheWind · 06/06/2022 17:06

What on are 'trans kids'? Seriously - what is the definition (one that isn't circular)?

Anyway, this is about defamation and it'll be helpful for that to be explained by Sally Hines in a court of law in the UK.

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